10 inch or 15

[bass_ferret]

No - not knob size

Why do so many think their bass rig has to have 10 inch and 15 inch cabs (or other combination of driver sizes). OK there are some 3 way cabs with a mid-range driver and tweeter, and even two way cabs with bass and mid speakers, but a lot of bass players think that the ideal rig is a 1x15 with a 2x10 or 4x10. I think the theory behind this is that the 10's will carry the midrange where the 15's run out, and the 15 will go lower than the 10's.

But if you think about it the frequencies where the cabs overlap will be so much louder than the frequencies where only one cabs is effective as to render those frequencies virtually inaudible. Just by way of example take some Ashdown ABM cabs and the published frequency response (that is pretty vague to be honest):

ABM 115 37Hz - 2kHz 98dB 1W@1m
ABM 210T 75Hz - 20kHz 102dB 1W @ 1m

Not withstanding the fact that the 210 has a 4dB advantage in sensitivity it also means that 75Hz to 2kHz will be 7dB louder than 37 to 75Hz. That is one serious midrange hump!

Throw into the mix the possibility of phase cancellation where phase changes with frequency response at different frequencies for the different cabs and you have all the ingredients for a very unpredicatable sound.

[chris_b]

Why bother asking a question when you just want to give us the answer!

[bass_ferret]

I could be wrong - it did happen twice.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='229054' date='Jun 29 2008, 10:18 AM']I could be wrong - it did happen twice.[/quote]Not this time, you're spot on.

[Gwilym]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='229049' date='Jun 29 2008, 03:10 PM']No - not knob size

Why do so many think their bass rig has to have 10 inch and 15 inch cabs (or other combination of driver sizes). OK there are some 3 way cabs with a mid-range driver and tweeter, and even two way cabs with bass and mid speakers, but a lot of bass players think that the ideal rig is a 1x15 with a 2x10 or 4x10. I think the theory behind this is that the 10's will carry the midrange where the 15's run out, and the 15 will go lower than the 10's.

But if you think about it the frequencies where the cabs overlap will be so much louder than the frequencies where only one cabs is effective as to render those frequencies virtually inaudible. Just by way of example take some Ashdown ABM cabs and the published frequency response (that is pretty vague to be honest):

ABM 115 37Hz - 2kHz 98dB 1W@1m
ABM 210T 75Hz - 20kHz 102dB 1W @ 1m

Not withstanding the fact that the 210 has a 4dB advantage in sensitivity it also means that 75Hz to 2kHz will be 7dB louder than 37 to 75Hz. That is one serious midrange hump!

Throw into the mix the possibility of phase cancellation where phase changes with frequency response at different frequencies for the different cabs and you have all the ingredients for a very unpredicatable sound.[/quote]

presumably it's exactly these deficiencies from the engineering standpoint that give the sound a characteristic that is attractive to the ears of the punter who bought it in the first place? hence the reason why these cab combinations are used?

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='229049' date='Jun 29 2008, 03:10 PM']No - not knob size

Why do so many think their bass rig has to have 10 inch and 15 inch cabs (or other combination of driver sizes). OK there are some 3 way cabs with a mid-range driver and tweeter, and even two way cabs with bass and mid speakers, but a lot of bass players think that the ideal rig is a 1x15 with a 2x10 or 4x10. I think the theory behind this is that the 10's will carry the midrange where the 15's run out, and the 15 will go lower than the 10's.

But if you think about it the frequencies where the cabs overlap will be so much louder than the frequencies where only one cabs is effective as to render those frequencies virtually inaudible. Just by way of example take some Ashdown ABM cabs and the published frequency response (that is pretty vague to be honest):

ABM 115 37Hz - 2kHz 98dB 1W@1m
ABM 210T 75Hz - 20kHz 102dB 1W @ 1m

Not withstanding the fact that the 210 has a 4dB advantage in sensitivity it also means that 75Hz to 2kHz will be 7dB louder than 37 to 75Hz. That is one serious midrange hump!

Throw into the mix the possibility of phase cancellation where phase changes with frequency response at different frequencies for the different cabs and you have all the ingredients for a very unpredicatable sound.[/quote]

Very interesting. Many years of seeing 1x15 + 4x10 rigs has brainwashed me into thinking that that is the best config. Seeing the actual figures is an eye opener. A real triumph of marketing over science.

What with BFM and Alex Claber's posts it's been a real education lately.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='Gwilym' post='229063' date='Jun 29 2008, 03:42 PM']presumably it's exactly these deficiencies from the engineering standpoint that give the sound a characteristic that is attractive to the ears of the punter who bought it in the first place? hence the reason why these cab combinations are used?[/quote]
But would anybody in a normal gigging situation (the tiny stages most of us perform on) even hear the 115. This was an extreme example but I picked it because somebody was being advised to add a 1x15 to an Ashdown rig in another thread. I wonder if you were gigging with this kind of rig would you notice if the bottom cab was unplugged?

The other thing is most shops only have one cab on demo - so you cant try 2 of the same cab in the shop even if you wanted to.

[jakenewmanbass]

I don't really understand the technicalities but I am intrested in cutting through the 'I think this is better than...' that tends to exist in the various opinions bandied about.
What conclusion do you draw and what would you recommend the potential buyer (thats me now BTW) should take into consideration in wanting a decent headroom and suitability for double and electric.
Sorry it's so obviously personally motivated, but I am looking for a rig as you know.
Cheers in advance
Jake

[man_at_arms84]

Thought I may aswell add my two cence. From a completely "untechnical" view. mind
I used a 4X10 & 1X15 for years. And I could definitly notice the 15. Just seemed to add a nice fat backbone to it. I think many people use this set up because well....to sound a bit niave maybe...it sounds good?
I mean if it sounds good to somebody than it's all relative right? Just personal choice I guess. I wouldnt say It's a better sound just different. I actually use 8x 10" now and used an amazing 4 X12 which just sounded awsome but weighs far to much to lug around.
If it sounds good, it sounds good. I mean the numbers might say one thing but the sound coming off the stage into my ears doesnt lie.
I usually listen with my ears and not with numbers.

[Stewart]

I just followed guidelines that make sense for me...

All the same driver units
All the same cabs
Modular/scalable
Easy to handle in terms of size/weight
A sound I've heard and liked

10" drivers would have been OK, but I've always thought it was a bit of a compromise for bass, especially as I wanted a usable single-cab option - so I more-or-less decided on 12"
A twin 12" wouldn't be small/light enough for my single-cab rig, so I had to go with singles.
Neo speakers - no real disadvantage other than price, I like all the neos I've heard anyway.

I'd heard quite a few GK rigs and liked them all, so I just thought "what the hell" and bought a 1001RB amp (massive overkill) and a 12" neo cab (followed by another).
If I'd had another couple of hundred going spare I would have liked to try the EBS 1x12 neos, but then I wouldn't have had the bi-amped setup I get with the 1001RB.

So far I'm always really impressed with how good it sounds, and how well it behaves in some rather challenging venues.
Impressively loud for the size, too.
Ask me again in a couple of years

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='229097' date='Jun 29 2008, 04:48 PM']I don't really understand the technicalities but I am intrested in cutting through the 'I think this is better than...' that tends to exist in the various opinions bandied about.
What conclusion do you draw and what would you recommend the potential buyer (thats me now BTW) should take into consideration in wanting a decent headroom and suitability for double and electric.
Sorry it's so obviously personally motivated, but I am looking for a rig as you know.
Cheers in advance
Jake[/quote]
Well of course everyone should buy with their ears but I doubt if many users of mis-matched cabs have tried matched cabs and there I guess is the rub. What I have done is found a cab I liked and bought two of them. I think chopthebass has got 3 Aguillar DB112's.

[man_at_arms84]

I can see what your saying about matched cabs etc.
Maybe the 15 and 10's combination would work better with two amps, one through each cab. Then you wouldnt have an issue of 10's overbearing the 15.
Im actually thinking of having second amp running through 15's or 12's in addtion to my two 4X10's. In effect having two rigs. ONe for mids and highs (the 10's) and one for super lows.
Daft maybe but I think it would sound great.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='man_at_arms84' post='229107' date='Jun 29 2008, 05:15 PM']Thought I may aswell add my two cence. From a completely "untechnical" view. mind
I used a 4X10 & 1X15 for years. And I could definitly notice the 15. Just seemed to add a nice fat backbone to it. I think many people use this set up because well....to sound a bit niave maybe...it sounds good?[/quote]
I must admit I was quite surprised to see such a difference with the Ashdown cabs and it may explain the marmite response to Ashdown in general and why so many people think it sounds like sh*t, if they have been listening to a rig like that.

I've just looked at EBS Pro-line cabs and there the 1x15 has +3dB on the 2x10 and is the same as the 4x10.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='man_at_arms84' post='229162' date='Jun 29 2008, 06:31 PM']I can see what your saying about matched cabs etc.
Maybe the 15 and 10's combination would work better with two amps, one through each cab. Then you wouldnt have an issue of 10's overbearing the 15.
Im actually thinking of having second amp running through 15's or 12's in addtion to my two 4X10's. In effect having two rigs. ONe for mids and highs (the 10's) and one for super lows.
Daft maybe but I think it would sound great.[/quote]
You wont be the first. Before he started bi-amping The Ox used to have one Hiwatt Head with the bass turned up full and one with the treble turned up. Jack Bruce did the same with his marshalls IIRC.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='229155' date='Jun 29 2008, 06:23 PM']Well of course everyone should buy with their ears but I doubt if many users of mis-matched cabs have tried matched cabs and there I guess is the rub. What I have done is found a cab I liked and bought two of them. I think chopthebass has got 3 Aguillar DB112's.[/quote]
Sorry if I missed this elsewhere, but what cabs do you have? are they matched? and what about them do you like in particular?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='229205' date='Jun 29 2008, 02:40 PM']Sorry if I missed this elsewhere, but what cabs do you have? are they matched?[/quote]Unless he built them himself, not likely.
To take from his example:
ABM 115 37Hz - 2kHz 98dB 1W@1m
ABM 210T 75Hz - 20kHz 102dB 1W @ 1m
These two cabs share bandwidth from 75Hz to 2kHz. Throughout that range they will both augment and detract from each other's output. In a 'matched' system frequency response of the 1x15 might be on the order of 37Hz-1kHz, with the second cab 1kHz-20kHz. They would employ either a passive crossover or bi-amping for frequency routing, and since they do not have overlapping bandwidths they could only augment each other.
More important, one does not require tens to operate only down to 1kHz. Eights or even sixes would do, they'd do it better, and would do so in far smaller packages, leaving the option for a second 1x15 should the need arise for more low end capability.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='229220' date='Jun 29 2008, 08:06 PM']Unless he built them himself, not likely.
To take from his example:
ABM 115 37Hz - 2kHz 98dB 1W@1m
ABM 210T 75Hz - 20kHz 102dB 1W @ 1m[/quote]

I may be mistaken as I'm not well informed in this arena but I don't think his 'example' is his 'cabs' (I might have missed something)
But anyway your post does clarify the idea of frequency routing and overlap where cabs are delivering the same range. Very useful to me thanks for that.

[bass_ferret]

I have two Genz Benz NeoX112T's.



I just picked on the Ashdown cabs because somebody was recommending adding a 1x15 to an Ashdown 2x10 in another thread.

[tempo]

Off Topic, but is that a Naim CD player & speakers I see there Mr Ferret?

[gilmour]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='229097' date='Jun 29 2008, 04:48 PM']I don't really understand the technicalities but I am intrested in cutting through the 'I think this is better than...' that tends to exist in the various opinions bandied about.
What conclusion do you draw and what would you recommend the potential buyer (thats me now BTW) should take into consideration in wanting a decent headroom and suitability for double and electric.
Sorry it's so obviously personally motivated, but I am looking for a rig as you know.
Cheers in advance
Jake[/quote]

Jake, I use one of BFMs O15TB's. ([url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=11971"]Details here[/url])

If you like I can bring it over with me when I come for my upright lesson this week, and you can have a blast after the lesson. I've not really used it with my upright (so will be interesting to hear), but for electric I've yet to hear better.

Edited June 30, 2008 by gilmour

[gilmour]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='229082' date='Jun 29 2008, 04:25 PM']But would anybody in a normal gigging situation (the tiny stages most of us perform on) even hear the 115. This was an extreme example but I picked it because somebody was being advised to add a 1x15 to an Ashdown rig in another thread. I wonder if you were gigging with this kind of rig would you notice if the bottom cab was unplugged?[/quote]

An example of this is about 8 months ago someone was using my backilne (Eden Head, Peavey 1x15) in a smallish venue (150 people tiny stage) and the sound engineer asked if I would mind going to ask him to turn down as he was drowning out the other instruments (through a 1K rig, overkill if you ask me). I asked him why he had it so loud, and he explined he couldn't hear it, it was very strange just could hardly hear anything from the amp at all, untill you were about 8' in front of it, and given that the stage was only about 5'...there's probably a lesson in here about speaker placement as per the Wiki, but not always possible in the real world.

[alexclaber]

See now I have this belief that there's a lot of bassists missing out on what a really good 15" can do on its own. People equate 'punch' with 10" speakers probably because most of the 15"s they hear are the terrible ones in cheap combos.

I shall bring a couple of my cabs to the SE Bass Bash and see if I'm not alone in my enjoyment of that big speaker goodness.

Alex

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='tempo' post='229355' date='Jun 29 2008, 10:52 PM']Off Topic, but is that a Naim CD player & speakers I see there Mr Ferret?[/quote]
Only the cheap ones though

[tempo]

Most players, and most don't read forums such as this, will emulate what they see their musical heroes use, to a degree. Also a measure of flawed science, its amazing how many players of these 4x10/1x15 type rigs believe they are "bi-amping" And lets face it how many buy rigs from guitar shops where the majority of the people selling the gear haven't got a clue what they're talkin about.

(Bass Ferret, just surprised to see a musician with a "proper Hi-fi", they tend to shy awayfrom such a concept! )

Edited June 30, 2008 by tempo

[Merton]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='229425' date='Jun 30 2008, 01:20 AM']See now I have this belief that there's a lot of bassists missing out on what a really good 15" can do on its own. People equate 'punch' with 10" speakers probably because most of the 15"s they hear are the terrible ones in cheap combos.

I shall bring a couple of my cabs to the SE Bass Bash and see if I'm not alone in my enjoyment of that big speaker goodness.

Alex[/quote]
My TE 1x15 V-Type combo has a hell of a lot of punch, but that's probably due to the Eminince driver being in an almost perfectly tuned tiny cabinet for it. Apparently. According to the Eminence specs and Win ISD. Not so sure myself but it sounds good