10 inch or 15

[Balcro]

Hello fellow basschatters.

This is my first ever post, but I can't hold back any longer as this post is close to one of my all time favourite rants about speakers.

First of, I don't know why they current fave rave is for a 1 x 15 and 2 x 10. I think it's a fashion. When I were a lad so to speak, everybody played through a stack of two 4 x 12's. Slapping was almost unheard of. 10" speakers were for practice cabs and small combos. By 1969, real men played "Acoustic" 361's with a 1 x 18". I was lucky enough to touch one once.

The Ashdown example (and it applies to every other manufacturer, but at least Ashdown are brave enough to quote them) quoted by bass-ferret is typical of the partial mis-information you get from manufacturers. Is it 37Hz - 2KHz + or minus 3, or + or minus 5?!!! or worse. If it's the latter than you've got a possible 10dB(a) difference across that small small frequency band. Remember it's a expressed over the range. So for example you could get +3 dB(a) above a certain nominal figure with -7 below; any combination of the numbers 1 -10. In practice that could mean your bass lows are way down.

Sure, 10" speakers will have a punchier sound and more extension into the midrange. In general they also have a higher fundamental resonance (Fs), hence the specification quote of 75Hz for the 210T. Again, plus or minus What? What bass player is going to generate even 15Khz? As bass_ferret says, you get a serious mid-range hump and phase issues where the two speakers overlap. Add to that the smaller cones and lower inertia of a 10 and that means they start & stop quicker than a 12 or 15 (or is that part of the phase issue?). Above about 850Hz the 10 incher is doing most of the real smooth work anyway.

I couldn't agree more with Andy Martin, it's triumph of marketing over science. Likewise with Gwilym - mixing 10's and 15's is a pointer to engineering deficiencies; the constraints of physics. Anyone want to build a hi-fi style loudspeaker with built in crossover? Failing that, trim the volume of the pick-up under E and A or reduce the mid-range setting on the amp.

Devils advocate time. If low B on a five string is 31 or 32Hz, does that mean even every 15" is unsuitable? ? ?

Regards to all. Balcro.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Balcro' post='229673' date='Jun 30 2008, 08:16 AM']Devils advocate time. If low B on a five string is 31 or 32Hz, does that mean even every 15" is unsuitable? ? ?[/quote]If it did then the Fridge (f3=58Hz) would be even more unsuitable. While the fundamental of the low B may be 31Hz it's the length of the string that determines where the power bandwidth lies. Should you wish an instrument that puts out the low B fundamental with equal power to the harmonics you'll need long arms and big hands, the scale would be nine feet long.

[Balcro]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='229763' date='Jun 30 2008, 03:04 PM']If it did then the Fridge (f3=58Hz) would be even more unsuitable. While the fundamental of the low B may be 31Hz it's the length of the string that determines where the power bandwidth lies. Should you wish an instrument that puts out the low B fundamental with equal power to the harmonics you'll need long arms and big hands, the scale would be nine feet long. :unsure:[/quote]


Thanks for the reply Bill. I get the reference to wavelength.

Oh, that is such a disappointment to me. I thought I was generating fundamentals with subsequent harmonics of decling power level. Meanwhile I'll just have to save up for an octaver special effects pedal followed by another one in series.

Cheers, Balcro

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Balcro' post='229892' date='Jun 30 2008, 12:47 PM']Meanwhile I'll just have to save up for an octaver special effects pedal followed by another one in series.

Cheers, Balcro[/quote]
No need to do that. just use excessive EQ to boost the bejesus out of the first octave, then run it through PA subs capable of going an octave lower than bass cabs do. That's how ham fisted FOH engineers can take a perfectly good bass and make it sound like crap. The worst mixed gig I ever saw was Ringo and friends, with Greg Lake on bass. The bottom was so over boosted that it drowned out the entire band. OTOH the midbass was so subdued that whenever he went above C he completely disappeared from the mix, you could only tell he was playing by watching his hands. Needless to say the sound coming from the PA bore no resemblance whatsoever to that from the two SVTs behind him on the stage. Talent wise Ringo had one of the best bands ever assembled, yet one idiot at the FOH ruined the entire exoerience.

[man_at_arms84]

[quote name='Balcro' post='229673' date='Jun 30 2008, 01:16 PM']When I were a lad so to speak, everybody played through a stack of two 4 x 12's. Slapping was almost unheard of. 10" speakers were for practice cabs and small combos. By 1969, real men played "Acoustic" 361's with a 1 x 18". I was lucky enough to touch one once.[/quote]
That sounds bloody amazing!
I often wonder why not many bassists seem to use 12's. My 4x12 is really great! wish it was bit more convineint to move around so I could take it on tour.

I saw an 18 speaker once. At the matamp factory. Was brilliant!
Al Cisneros from the band sleep & Om uses a slave amp through two 4X15 cabs, another amp through two 4x12's and one last amp through a 2X15.
How I wish to hear it.

[Rich]

I had 1x15 and 2x10 cabs up until a while ago, but swapped the 2x10 for another matching 1x15. I have to say that I far prefer the 2x1x15 sound now... it's more rounded, less peaky, smoother, better bottom end (as you'd expect, I suppose) and far less directional.

[rodl2005]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='229224' date='Jun 29 2008, 08:13 PM']I may be mistaken as I'm not well informed in this arena but I don't think his 'example' is his 'cabs' (I might have missed something)
But anyway your post does clarify the idea of frequency routing and overlap where cabs are delivering the same range. Very useful to me thanks for that.[/quote]




To give U a good example of a cab/s that soung great w/ Uprite AND elec bass. I use a Mark Bass LMII amp with an Aguilar GS112 & GS115 which sound GREAT w/ both basses. Many simply use 2 (or even one ) GS112 depending on gig size etc.

Back OT. I can DEF. hear/feel when MY GS115 is going when used with a 2x10, 1x12 or 4 x 10" cab!!!!! I LOVE the big round sound of 15"s

[alanbass1]

I have a WT800B and use this in Bi-amp mode so it makes perfect sense having a speaker more suited to the low end taking care of that end of the spectrum and a different speaker type more suited to the mid/high's. I'm currently using a pair of EA CXL112's for the low end and a 4ohm Epifani UL210 for the 50kh and above. Taking the low frequencies away from the Epifani really helps with the definition and I find I don't need so much volume to cut through the mix.

Being a 4 strng user the EA's are more than capable of giving a solid bottom end - if I had a 5 stringer I would likely get a 15" speaker.

[Lo.]

I used to play using an SWR 1x18 (Bag End) cab - no tweeter - it was a wonderful simple setup and I still love to jam through that cab, but it does not reproduce the fundamental like the PJB Suitcase rig I have (4x5 combo + 4x5 ext cab), especially on a B-string. I demonstrated PJB gear at NAMM in January - all the upright bass players that tried it were amazed - boosting the 50hz graphic slider is like putting an octaver on your bass.

So the answer from me is 5's in a well designed box, I guess......or an 18 on its own!

Love BF's comments on here - thanks for all the info!!

[paul, the]

I'm no where near knowledgeable enough to discuss this, but I am eager to heed expert advice as long as I don't have to spend too much money.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='229425' date='Jun 30 2008, 01:20 AM']See now I have this belief that there's a lot of bassists missing out on what a really good 15" can do on its own. People equate 'punch' with 10" speakers probably because most of the 15"s they hear are the terrible ones in cheap combos.[/quote]

Actually I've got a 15" aversion that I think stems from bad cabs. Like everybody else I started out with crappy 1x15" combos, then switched to 410 cabs when I had more money. Later, for a summer, I gigged with an Ampeg 2x15" and never liked the sound of it, and never went anywhere near 15s after that. But recently I was at a friend's house and he had an Ampeg combo* with a 15 in it that sounded bloody brilliant - lots of lows, lots of high-end presence, really killer little combo. Apparently they don't make them any more.

So yeah I'm currently gigging an Ashdown 410, but because I use an octaver a lot I'm a bit disappointed with it. And of course it's too heavy because I live in a first-floor flat. Next step I think is to try two 1x12" cabs. At least they'll be portable.

* Maybe someone can help me find one: It was a 1x15" combo, the amp flipped upside-down into the cab for storage, and it had a metal spike that screwed into the back so you could tilt it. Cleverest little combo I ever saw.

Edited July 3, 2008 by thisnameistaken

[johnnylager]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='229425' date='Jun 30 2008, 01:20 AM']See now I have this belief that there's a lot of bassists missing out on what a really good 15" can do on its own. People equate 'punch' with 10" speakers probably because most of the 15"s they hear are the terrible ones in cheap combos.

I shall bring a couple of my cabs to the SE Bass Bash and see if I'm not alone in my enjoyment of that big speaker goodness.

Alex[/quote]
Aye. Peavey Combo 300 15" BW - sh*te, Sunn 215B - beautiful. Bring me to back to the 15" fold at the bash, boy!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='231736' date='Jul 3 2008, 03:59 AM']* Maybe someone can help me find one: It was a 1x15" combo, the amp flipped upside-down into the cab for storage, and it had a metal spike that screwed into the back so you could tilt it. Cleverest little combo I ever saw.[/quote]

Sounds like a B15 Portaflex. One of the few classic bass amps. Not v loud but still popular for recording.

Alex

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='231736' date='Jul 3 2008, 03:59 AM']* Maybe someone can help me find one: It was a 1x15" combo, the amp flipped upside-down into the cab for storage, and it had a metal spike that screwed into the back so you could tilt it. Cleverest little combo I ever saw.[/quote]
What Alex said; one of these:[url="http://www.ampeg.com/products/diamondbluebass/b15/index.html"]ampeg B15[/url] - still availabe and very expensive. Cant see any available in the UK but last time I saw one listed buy an e-tailer it was about £1500.

[thisnameistaken]

Ah - I found that when I was looking for one, but it wasn't one of those. It was a relatively new combo, think it might've been a solid state amp, maybe a newer take on the Portaflex.

[rodl2005]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='229913' date='Jun 30 2008, 06:22 PM']No need to do that. just use excessive EQ to boost the bejesus out of the first octave, then run it through PA subs capable of going an octave lower than bass cabs do. That's how ham fisted FOH engineers can take a perfectly good bass and make it sound like crap. The worst mixed gig I ever saw was Ringo and friends, with Greg Lake on bass. The bottom was so over boosted that it drowned out the entire band. OTOH the midbass was so subdued that whenever he went above C he completely disappeared from the mix, you could only tell he was playing by watching his hands. Needless to say the sound coming from the PA bore no resemblance whatsoever to that from the two SVTs behind him on the stage. Talent wise Ringo had one of the best bands ever assembled, yet one idiot at the FOH ruined the entire exoerience. [/quote]



AWWWWW CR@P what a BUMMER!!!!! I HATE cruddy FOH engineers. worst one I saw/heard was an African band playing here in Aus. & the Dumb old mixer - mixed it like he would a Guitar based ROCK band All guitar & everything else an even blend-there was ONE guitar(playing the African "intricate'' style they do) two Keys, Horns, Heaps of percussion, Backing vox, Bass Drums- ALL this was a jumbled blur BUT DAMN U could hear EVERY NOTEthe guitarist played!!!! TOTAL OPPOSITE of what was needed!!! Took ANY groove-hypnotic beats out of the mix!!