Overwater vs Wal...

[TheGreek]

I've owned both a Wal MK1 Custom (and a Pro which I wasn't impressed with) and a Overwater Custom Jazz. I found the Overwater to be by far the better instrument (weight/balance/feel) however you can't underestimate, or replicate, the sounds from the Wal. Unfortunately they are weighty and the neck profile wasn't to my liking..

You can get the best of both worlds by getting, as Luke says, an ACG. I'm sure that Alan would be happy to build a more conservative bass. Also hard to argue against a GB - the Spitfire has a bolt on neck..

[Conan]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1388156918' post='2318964']You can get the best of both worlds by getting, as Luke says, an ACG. I'm sure that Alan would be happy to build a more conservative bass.[/quote]

Good point. A lot of bass/guitar makers (as we don't seem to be calling them 'luthiers' these days...) like a challenge. If there are things you like about Wals, Overwaters and Laklands (among others) then a quality maker like ACG (or Shuker, who others rave about) should be able to combine the features you want to get a bass that is "you".

Buy a Wal "off the peg" (as it were) and you may be several thousand pounds lighter in the wallet but still be frustrated by what you see as its shortcomings...

[White Cloud]

I have been researching AC guitars as previously suggested...the Uber Recurve looks awesome. If Alan could change the headstock slightly (more of a paddle) then I really think this might be a winner!

[mikeswals]

[quote] however you can't underestimate, or replicate, the sounds from the Wal. Unfortunately they are weighty and the neck profile wasn't to my liking.

You can get the best of both worlds by getting, as Luke says, an ACG. I'm sure that Alan would be happy to build a more conservative bass. Also hard to argue against a GB - the Spitfire has a bolt on neck.[/quote] If you are talking about having a bass built here, Wal now make their basses lighter than ever. And Paul will not even start on the neck until you specify to him how you want the neck profile to be

Edited December 29, 2013 by mikeswals

[Dingus]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1388256996' post='2320118']
I have been researching AC guitars as previously suggested...the Uber Recurve looks awesome. If Alan could change the headstock slightly (more of a paddle) then I really think this might be a winner!
[/quote]

The question I would be asking myself in your position is do I want to buy a high-quality custom bass , or do I want to buy a Wal? If what you really hanker for is a Wal then that is what you should at least aspire to, in my opinion .

It's possible to spend a lot of money on a bass which is a "sensible" choice , but which still leaves you dissatisfied in terms of your heart's desire. It would in fact be more sensible to leave your options open for the future until you find something that you really do have no doubts about. I've said it before and I will say it again , but if you have to think so hard about whether you like a particular bass then you probably don't like it enough to want to buy it. At least wait until you find something you have an overwhelming attraction to and then investigate further if it is indeed suitable for you . Until then , you are better off sticking with whatever you have now.

If Wal basses are so special to you then at least you know what you are aiming for, and like Mike says, the ones that Paul is building now are probably the most flawless there has ever been . At least you have the reassurance of knowing that if and when you order a Wal , you are getting the best possible example of something you are already very familiar with.

[Conan]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1388326631' post='2320758']If what you really hanker for is a Wal then that is what you should at least aspire to, in my opinion [/quote]

And the re-sale value of a Wal (if it ever came to that!) is far higher than that of any custom bass.

There have been several examples on here, over the last few years, of people trying sell basses that were their "perfect, ideal" bass. Made for them, to their specs. But then they decided they didn't actually like them as much as they thought they were going to. In some cases they sell for less than half of what they cost, even though they are virtually brand new.

Of course, if you have money to burn, this may not bother you. But for those of us who have to think carefully before making major musical purchases, it is worth doing a lot of research first.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1388327361' post='2320764']
And the re-sale value of a Wal (if it ever came to that!) is far higher than that of any custom bass.

There have been several examples on here, over the last few years, of people trying sell basses that were their "perfect, ideal" bass. Made for them, to their specs. But then they decided they didn't actually like them as much as they thought they were going to. In some cases they sell for less than half of what they cost, even though they are virtually brand new.

Of course, if you have money to burn, this may not bother you. But for those of us who have to think carefully before making major musical purchases, it is worth doing a lot of research first.
[/quote]

The market for Wal basses is indeed "buoyant" , as I believe is the appropriate term , and probably will be for the immediately foreseeable future. The same cannot be said, however, for most other exotic wood custom -made basses. They are very much marginalised in the marketplace in favour of Fender-inspired designs. I would venture that as far as original modern designs without a Leo Fender association, probably only Wal , Alembic, Fodera, USA -made Spectors and F Basses are still at the top of most bass players wish lists .

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1388332414' post='2320825']
The market for Wal basses is indeed "buoyant" , as I believe is the appropriate term , and probably will be for the immediately foreseeable future. The same cannot be said, however, for most other exotic wood custom -made basses. They are very much marginalised in the marketplace in favour of Fender-inspired designs.
[/quote]
Very true.

I personally find the current fender inspired design obsessed bass market place extremely...boring (despite paradoxically really enjoying both Sadowsky & Lakland derivatives). I, like you, was a bassist forged during the era when Fenders were considered unimaginative, undesirable & square!

The question is...if an ACG bass is built as well, plays as well, uses a similar filter based electronic package (always my preference) and looks as good as a Wal...at half the price (plus being located just over an hour drive away from me)...would I be stupid to discount it?

[EMG456]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1388333746' post='2320860']


The question is...if an ACG bass is built as well, plays as well, uses a similar filter based electronic package (always my preference) and looks as good as a Wal...at half the price (plus being located just over an hour drive away from me)...would I be stupid to discount it?
[/quote]

Yes, you would. Alan's stuff is very, very good and easily the equal of all the other exotic names which have been mentioned in this thread so if it's just a few hours out of your day to lose, give him a call and go along and check them out.

That said, an ACG may be able to do all the things a Wal does but it's still •not a Wal•.

In terms of musical instrument ownership there are many more factors coming into play than the simple and measurable ones like is it well made, can it provide a certain kind of sound, does it feel nice to play etc. etc. The fact is that you could end up buying something that matches the Wal in every respect but two years down the line you find that the hankering for the Wal still has not gone away. If that's the case than I'm afraid the only way to cure that itch is to scratch it!

Anyway, I'm a fan of "big birthday" basses so wish you well with whatever choice you make. My big five oh bass had been determined to be an NS Design electric upright until, virtually at the point of ordering, I was knocked sideways by a YouTube link and now find myself more than five years down the line, still struggling to become vaguely competent on the Chapman Stick!

You never know what's round the corner but whatever you choose, enjoy it.

Cheers

Ed

[White Cloud]

[quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1388352726' post='2321197']
You never know what's round the corner but whatever you choose, enjoy it.

Cheers

Ed
[/quote]
Thanks Ed.

To be honest this thread has widened my horizons. I checked out an ACG Recurve on youtube earlier and the tone was to die for. I don't think I can wait until my 50th though!

[GreeneKing]

Alan has owned a Wal. He doesn't copy Wals but I think it's fair to say that some of his favourite bass lines were played on one.

I've a new Uber spec that has the multi coil pickups and the latest filter pre. The pre has been developed with Alan's needs put into reality by John Easts technical expertise. It's not a copy of a Wal pre having markedly different and wider parameters but it is extremely versatile. With the adjustable mid range boosts and the 3 filters plus a passive tone the possibilities are huge and the tone from the MC pickups is pretty amazing.

Alan will happily discuss the differences with you I'm sure.

http://www.acguitars.co.uk/acg_admin/wordpress/portfolio/0148u-finn-5/

[alembic63]

If your buying for your 50th.... get the Wal....this is an occasion to buy with the heart, not the head.

[Dingus]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1388333746' post='2320860']
Very true.



The question is...if an ACG bass is built as well, plays as well, uses a similar filter based electronic package (always my preference) and looks as good as a Wal...at half the price (plus being located just over an hour drive away from me)...would I be stupid to discount it?
[/quote]

I think you should by all means consider one of Alan's basses- some of them look exquisite to me( Salas, Recurve) - but , to reiterate what I have tried to say already, if what you really hanker for is a Wal then that should be your goal. If what you want is a superb, hand -crafted hi-fi, hi-tech bass guitar with a flexible, modern sound the an ACG or Overwater will give you that in spades, but if what you need is to identify with Wal as a brand and all the associations that go along with that then only a Wal will do.

The deeper truth is that when we purchase luxury goods of various kinds , or aspire to do so, a big part of what we are flirting with is as much in our own imagination as it is the actual goods themselves. That is a major factor in defining the world we live in, and manufacturers are acutely aware of it. It's why brand -identity is such a critical consideration for all kinds of consumer goods. It's why Diesel want David Beckham to wear their jeans , and George at Asda aim their jeans at men who look like Eamonn Holmes. As a maker of bass guitars, without even trying, Wal have created a brand-identity that most other bass guitar makers would give their right arm for, albeit that that prestige is based on having a fantastic quality product to sell. All I am trying to say is that you should think carefully about what it is that you[i] really[/i] want and be honest with yourself.

I hasten to add that there is absolutely nothing wrong with brand-association as a phenomena, and that I am just as susceptible to it as anybody else, so please don't think I am making any judgements or being scathing about anybody in any way. All it would take would be for Geddy Lee to start playing an ACG and Alan would be taking my deposit and putting me on his waiting list. For what it's worth, I think it's only a matter of time before a very high-profile bass player discovers Alan's basses and then his profile as a builder will take a dramatic leap, and good luck to him .

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1388420954' post='2321788']
All I am trying to say is that you should think carefully about what it is that you[i] really[/i] want and be honest with yourself.
[/quote]
Dingus to be absolutely honest with you I don't think you have "tried" to say anything....I think that you have said it very, very well. For whatever reason, considering I don't know you, your opinion is quite important me and I value it. You have hit the nail on the head regarding the fostering of, and nuances of, brand creation/association.

I have been mulling over the advice offered throughout this thread a lot lately, and having had a close look at AC guitars...I think Alan will get my order. The only problem is I am talking in future tense...and that is frustrating!

[eude]

Just another +1 for ACG from me.
Some of the finest basses I've ever played, and very happy to own, and the build quality surpasses or at the very least matches pretty much everything I've ever laid eyes on, and that includes a lot of what people consider to be very high end builders.
There's a lot of designs to choose from, and with the J Type and potentially a P Type on the way, there's something for the more traditionally minded bass player.
The ACG Filter preamp takes the Wal principal and then builds on it giving similar(ish) application with far wider results.
There's also several versions of the preamp available now too, the original EQ01, the EQ03 with added low and mid boosts, active/passive switching and tone control, and now the SEQ which is a simplified version which feels a lot more like a standard tone/tone setup but offering much much more.
The new MC series pickups which are only available in the Uber Spec basses are unlike anything I've ever heard before, incredibly full range, open and hifi sounding. Even response and tone from the lowest open string to the highest notes on the G string, on the original Uber Spec Recurve I tried at the London Bass Show last year. This gives you as much of the tone of your bass and every nuance of your playing, for better or worse, to then do with as you will.

I'm going to be ordering another ACG early 2014, if I can stretch to it, I'll be going for an Uber Spec too

Just my 2p, other luthiers are available, but given your proximity to Moffat, you'd be mad to at least not pay Alan a visit

Eude

[White Cloud]

[quote name='GreeneKing' timestamp='1388393620' post='2321393']
Alan has owned a Wal. He doesn't copy Wals but I think it's fair to say that some of his favourite bass lines were played on one.

I've a new Uber spec that has the multi coil pickups and the latest filter pre. The pre has been developed with Alan's needs put into reality by John Easts technical expertise. It's not a copy of a Wal pre having markedly different and wider parameters but it is extremely versatile. With the adjustable mid range boosts and the 3 filters plus a passive tone the possibilities are huge and the tone from the MC pickups is pretty amazing.

Alan will happily discuss the differences with you I'm sure.

[url="http://www.acguitars.co.uk/acg_admin/wordpress/portfolio/0148u-finn-5/"]http://www.acguitars...o/0148u-finn-5/[/url]
[/quote]
This is very encouraging indeed.

[Dingus]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1388422776' post='2321812']
Dingus to be absolutely honest with you I don't think you have "tried" to say anything....I think that you have said it very, very well. For whatever reason, considering I don't know you, your opinion is quite important me and I value it. You have hit the nail on the head regarding the fostering of, and nuances of, brand creation/association.

I have been mulling over the advice offered throughout this thread a lot lately, and having had a close look at AC guitars...I think Alan will get my order. The only problem is I am talking in future tense...and that is frustrating!
[/quote]

That is quite worrying that anyone would pay attention to what I have to say.

Keeping things in perspective, I don't think you could go too far wrong with any of the basses you are considering in terms of ending up with a very well-made instrument. All the builders you are flirting with do top quality work, and will pay attention to what you want. Being happy with you get in the end is a slightly different and much more tricky proposition, and for all kinds of reasons that element is just as much dependant on yourself as much as it is the builder, but that is true of any custom build.

Speaking of ultimate basses, didn't you mention once that you had a Vigier Arpege with a graphite neck? I was watching Bands Reunited featuring Kajagoogoo that someone posted on Basschat the other day and there is snippet from their heyday with Nick Beggs playing a beautiful white one and it just reminded me what awesome basses they were. I could only dream of owning one at that time, and the Vigiers they make now just don't have the same appeal to me. That era of Vigier basses would still be very near the top of my wish- list. Those basses were the epitome of what that kind of bass guitar[i] should [/i]be- punchy as hell, light, powerful and very playable-and I sincerely wish they still made them like that now. Maybe you could get whatever builder to distil some of those elements into your custom build.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Dingus

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1388502388' post='2322751']
Speaking of ultimate basses, didn't you mention once that you had a Vigier Arpege with a graphite neck? I was watching Bands Reunited featuring Kajagoogoo that someone posted on Basschat the other day and there is snippet from their heyday with Nick Beggs playing a beautiful white one and it just reminded me what awesome basses they were. I could only dream of owning one at that time, and the Vigiers they make now just don't have the same appeal to me. That era of Vigier basses would still be very near the top of my wish- list. Those basses were the epitome of what that kind of bass guitar[i] should [/i]be- punchy as hell, light, powerful and very playable-and I sincerely wish they still made them like that now. Maybe you could get whatever builder to distil some of those elements into your custom build.
[/quote]
Yes I did own a Vigier Arpege with a carbon fibre neck...funnily enough it was also white. It was an exceptional instrument - on a par with the Wal & Alembic soundwise...and in hindsight probably nicer to play. I think it was an ex Hue & Cry/Midge Ure instrument. I had to sell that bass (cheap) in 1989 due to a sudden bout of extreme poverty. Another beauty bit the dust..........sigh. And I also agree that the current batch of Vigier basses just don't hold the same desirability.

Happy new year and all the very best

[Dingus]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1388520519' post='2323116']
Yes I did own a Vigier Arpege with a carbon fibre neck...funnily enough it was also white. It was an exceptional instrument - on a par with the Wal & Alembic soundwise...and in hindsight probably nicer to play. I think it was an ex Hue & Cry/Midge Ure instrument. I had to sell that bass (cheap) in 1989 due to a sudden bout of extreme poverty. Another beauty bit the dust..........sigh. And I also agree that the current batch of Vigier basses just don't hold the same desirability.

Happy new year and all the very best
[/quote]

A very happy new year to you too, sir, and hopefully a prosperous one, too.

Ex-Hue and Cry- that would make sense. I remember going to see them play live just at the time when Labour of Love firsty came out and their bass player had obviously spent his part of the advance money on a brand new black Vigier, Arpege so he may well have ended up with another one as well. He had previously been playing a Wal with wenge facings , and presumably that is the bass on the record. He was a superb bass player too. I remember hearing him go through some licks during the soundcheck and being very impressed, as well as with what he was doing on the Hue and Cry record. Ah , the summer of 1987 ... I was going through a hairstyle-transition period, but otherwise it was a happy time for me. That chap from Hue and Cry went on to be the bass player for Stiltskin( they of the song "Inside" from the Levi's ad of about twenty years ago) and is apparently now a music teacher at a school in Scotland.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1388588199' post='2323693']
That chap from Hue and Cry went on to be the bass player for Stiltskin( they of the song "Inside" from the Levi's ad of about twenty years ago) and is apparently now a music teacher at a school in Scotland.
[/quote]
You are right, James Finnigan is an excellent bassist. I recall cutting a demo with one of my old bands in the 80's in Glasgows CAVA studio around the same time as Hue and Cry were cutting their fist release at the same venue. I recall he was adept at playing Jaco lines...always neat and tidy.

Funnily enough I traded my 1974 Fender Jazz bass against the white Vigier (James's back up to the black Arpege)....and reputably James subsequently bought the Jazz.. Weird!

[Dingus]

Found this clip on YT and it features the aforementioned Vigier Arpege, and it turns out to be fretless with a metal fingerboard! Could this get any more '80's?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ihi9bkxomE

That bass , the white jumpsuit, that hair. That is just about everything was aiming for as a young man , and probably still am now . No wonder I am such a disappointment to myself when I look in the mirror . All I need now is Findus French Bread frozen pizza that tastes like polystyrene with a bit of cheese and tomato on it and I will be transported back to those days.

[TheGreek]

I craved a Wal for many years...when I finally got one I was so disappointed that I didn't get on with it (neck profile) however the ACG just exceeded my expectations...I'd get in touch with Alan and go and try one before making any serious decisions.

Decided against the Overwater then???

[White Cloud]

[quote name='TheGreek' timestamp='1389988428' post='2340377']
Decided against the Overwater then???
[/quote]
Yes. I know, I know...I am shallow!

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1389980653' post='2340276']
That bass , the white jumpsuit, that hair. That is just about everything was aiming for as a young man , and probably still am now . No wonder I am such a disappointment to myself when I look in the mirror . All I need now is Findus French Bread frozen pizza that tastes like polystyrene with a bit of cheese and tomato on it and I will be transported back to those days.
[/quote]
Sigh...I miss the 80's almost as much as I miss my hair!