Playing a 4th over a root, why does this work?

[iconic]

This sort of follows on from the A#5 thread....the song being Duran's Come Undone, quick refresher

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmhKnOoXvyY[/media]

COME UNDONE
C5 A#5 G#m A#5
Mine immaculate dream made breath and skin I've been waiting for you
C5 A#5 G#5 A#5
Signed with a home tattoo happy birthday to you was created for ya

C5 A#5
Can't ever keep from falling apart at the seams
G#5 A#5
Can't I believe you're taking my heart too pieces
C5 A#5 G#5 A#5
Oh, it'll take a little time might take a little crime to come undone now
Fm G# A#5 Gm
We'll try to stay blind to the hope and fear outside
Fm G# A#5 Gm C5
Hey child stay wilder than the wind and blow me in to cry
A#5 G#5 A#5 C5
Who do you need who do you love when you come undone
A#5 G#5 A#5 C5
Who do you need who do you love when you come undone


during this song an Eb is sometimes played over a Bb5 (A#5!) , which to me is playing a 4th over the root, only works on the 1st Bb, not the 2nd. The song is in Cm, does this Eb work as it's the 3rd of Cm...or something? I can't get my head around how it sounds so 'right'.


.....great fun doing the intro' to this....interesting (to me ) how it works....different key but you get the idea of the 5th slides 'n stuff up the dusty end of my 24 fret Yamaha RBX4-A2

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NshuuXimLeg[/media]

[Hector]

There's no real taboo about playing the 4th. It can clash with a major 7th a bit. However,this doesn't mean avoid the 4th but rather treat with extra care. (Jazz guys often play #4 over major 7 chords. There's an interesting reason for this - go up in 5ths from a root and you get a lydian (#4) scale.)

The interval of a 4th isn't inherently dissonant though, it sounds nice. If a chord is voiced as a 5 chord (ie a powerchord) the 4th can be nice

[iconic]

Thanks for that great explanation...power chords raise their head again to me!

Cheers

[iconic]

hang on, no I don't understand that....go up in 5ths from the root of a M7 and I get a Lydian scale?

[Hector]

Hah, slightly irrelevant thought and not fully formed so wouldn't worry too much.!

I was just thinking that Lydian can sound really consonant, and was trying to possibly relate it to the fact that if you go up in 5ths from a particular note, you end up with #11 rather than 11.

E.g. from C going up in 5ths, you get C(R) G(5) D(9) A(13) E(3) B(7) F#(#11) ---- rearranged ---> C(R) D(9) E(3) F#(#11) G(5) A(13) B(7) (Lydian mode)


If you do it on a piano with a sustain pedal on and leave all the notes ringing, an F# sounds a bit nicer to the ear than F natural.

I was just thinking that this might be why the natural 4 can sound a bit out over tonic chords, maybe related to something to do with the physics of sound or the harmonic overtone series or something like that, maybe even deeper about how our brains process music and why some things sound dissonant, but I'm not sure it's worth probing further for much more than academic interest!

There's a jazz theorist called George Russel who developed a whole method based around the Lydian scale, called the Lydian Chromatic Concept. I've not studied it myself, but I think it goes quite deep. Perhaps it's time for me to avoid the relatives and have a read? Will report back and try to be less vague in the future

If you're interested, likely not because I'm being a nerd, his website explaining some stuff to do with why he thinks Lydian is so great is here: [url="http://www.lydianchromaticconcept.com/lccoto.html"]http://www.lydianchromaticconcept.com/lccoto.html[/url]

[iconic]

thanks Hector, have a great Christmas

[Hector]

Any time mate, you too!

[dlloyd]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1387829515' post='2316288']during this song an Eb is sometimes played over a Bb5 (A#5!)
[/quote]

Who is playing the Eb?

I would steer clear of George Russell by the way. Very advanced stuff.

[foal30]

think Russell's stuff is part of Kind of Blue

[iconic]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1387927501' post='2317393']


Who is playing the Eb?

I would steer clear of George Russell by the way. Very advanced stuff.
[/quote]

well it isn't john taylor....he wasnt with duran then, i could be wrong but it could be bass-synth.....the bass does play an EB but not all the way thru....the drum lick must be one of the most popular of its time too.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1387995928' post='2317797']
well it isn't john taylor....he wasnt with duran then, i could be wrong but it could be bass-synth.....the bass does play an EB but not all the way thru....the drum lick must be one of the most popular of its time too.
[/quote]

But it's in the bass, right?

Okay, some basic music theory.

If a piano player is playing E, G and B with his right hand, it's an Em chord.

If he adds a C with his left hand, the overall chord is a Cmaj7.

What if a guitar player plays an Em chord and the bass player plays a C? Is that any different?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1388002391' post='2317841']
But it's in the bass, right?

Okay, some basic music theory.

If a piano player is playing E, G and B with his right hand, it's an Em chord.

If he adds a C with his left hand, the overall chord is a Cmaj7.

What if a guitar player plays an Em chord and the bass player plays a C? Is that any different?
[/quote]

No, no different, in fact, a perfectly normal way to play a vanilla CMaj7.

Subject to completion, correction and/or contradiction from others...

[iconic]

I understand that, good explanation.

but here the Eb is over (under?) a power chord....Bb5....so a Bb with the 5th being an F.

So if the Eb is played under and in addition to a Bb5.....wouldnt that then be a Eb5add9?

I may have all that wrong though my basic theory usually is?!?

[dlloyd]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1388035666' post='2317987']
I understand that, good explanation.

but here the Eb is over (under?) a power chord....Bb5....so a Bb with the 5th being an F.

So if the Eb is played under and in addition to a Bb5.....wouldnt that then be a Eb5add9?
[/quote]

Yes. Or possibly an Ebsus2 (I've also seen them notated as sus9... not sure that's correct)

I'm not familiar with the song, and I'm assuming the Eb is functioning as more than just a passing note, but add9 chords are great... Every Breath You Take by the Police is one of the more famous examples.

[ambient]

I'm told add uni to play Lydian over major, it avoids any clash and adds a nice bit of colour.

[Romberg Bevel]

Having listened to the track, the simple answer is that the chords are labelled wrong. The chord progression in the chorus is different to the verse (the intro has both progressions played consecutively). It appears that you are determining the chords from what the guitar plays which is putting the cart before the horse. Where the bass plays the Eb, the chord is an Eb.

[iconic]

chorus type bit is G# then G....I didn't post the full tab

.

[Romberg Bevel]

Sorry, I think you're misunderstanding. The chorus chords (put simply) are: cm, Eb, Ab, Bb (gm). The verse chords are: cm, Bb, Ab, Bb. The bass doesn't play a fourth above the root - it plays the root. The chord labels in your example are wrong, which is where the confusion lies.

[iconic]

You could of course be correct, I have looked at 6 tabs but none have the Eb shown, but internet tabs are often incorrect!

[Romberg Bevel]

Yes, the tabs are an approximation of what the guitar is playing, but that is not the whole picture. The guitar part is the same in both verse and chorus but the chords are not. The reason that the bass is playing Eb and it works is that the chord is Eb!

[iconic]

You lost me a little in the the guitar part is the same but the chords are different?

Still you got me thinking....last night I watched a number of videos of acoustic covers & 'Duran's unplugged' although sometimes hard to follow & none appear to be playing an Eb...but as they say "your mileage may vary"?

Also if you watch the second video of 'how to play' although in a different key - where there would be a G played instead of a D - the D is still played....with twiddly frills over it, but root of chord stays the same, but I'm no guitarist!

I suppose unless I get a copy of the sheet music (I've tried) we will never know for sure, but none the the less, I've learnt that a 4th over a root can indeed work and needn't be a dissonant note when used over a power chord, and I'm now a convert to the lydian scale

Edited December 28, 2013 by iconic

[Romberg Bevel]

The guitar is not the only instrument. You're defining the chords by what the guitar is playing which is where you come undone! You really don't need the sheet music - listen to the track, play the chords - you'll hear it. Besides, sheet music isn't definitive. It's great that you've learnt things about fourths and the Lydian, but they have nothing to do with your question!

[Dad3353]

Guitarists very often play 'rootless' chords, in the knowledge that the bass player will be filling in the root (and more...). In Jazz combos, a guitarist will use 'shell' chords, which are particularly pared down to a minimum, so as not to clash with others (soloist, keys, horns...). In very many styles of music, the 'chords' are played across many instruments, not only guitars, and the 'root' is very often to be found in the bass. To transcribe a piece and attribute chord names (if that's relevant...), one should use all the notes, not just from one instrument.
Just my tuppence-worth...

[iconic]

Thanks guys.

[XB26354]

OK, just listened to the track through headphones to actually hear what the bass is doing as I couldn't hear an Eb anywhere over the Bb chord.
Although the guitar is playing a melodic line through the chords it's not really outlining most of them as major or minor. The keyboard is playing root-5th and I can't hear any 3rds other than the final Bb chord.

Guitar plays this in the verse:
G over C (minor implied, bass sometimes plays Eb as do some of the backing vocals)
G-F over Bb (major implied but nothing is playing a D)
F-Eb over Ab (major implied but again, nothing is sounding a major third - C)
D over the final Bb (this clearly indicates a Bb major chord)

The important thing here is the first Bb chord. All I can hear is Bb, F and G, no major 3rd (D). These notes also work well in an Eb chord - Bb is the 5th, F is the 2nd/9th and G is the major 3rd. So, although the tonality appears to suggest it is a Bb chord, the guitar melody makes it easy to reharmonise this as an Eb - which is what the bass does. This wouldn't work as well on the 2nd Bb chord as the guitar now is playing a major 3rd (D), so the bass sticks to Bb.

So, after that long-winded explanation, the bass is not playing a 4th over the root but reharmonising the chord with a new root.

As for a major chord with a 4th, technically this sounds more appealing if the 4th is below the major 3rd, so, in C: C F G E. It's all about the intervals between each note in the chord. If you place the F above the E you get a minor 2nd/minor 9th interval (E to F) which is very dissonant compared to 4th below 3rd - F to E gives you a major 7th.