di problem solving

[Dad3353]

Good evening, Andy...

In the same way, please don't take this badly; I'm sure you're thinking this through with the best of intentions. I'm not sure just how big the venues you're playing are. If they're big enough to warrant FOH for all the instruments, I'd say (again, no malice intended...) that your job is to get your sound as best as possible for yourself and your band mates. The desk engi has the job of getting the whole band sound (yes, including your bass sound...) to the audience. His problematic (and therefore his solutions...) are very different from yours.
In a recording situation, things are often very different again, as the bass is often a solo instrument at recording time, no leakage to fear, and (one would hope...) an optimised mic for picking up the cab, in the room (sometimes several mics, even...). 'Live', this is (almost...) impossible. Whatever you're hearing from the cab, live on stage, is very unlikely to come out the same once picked up by an SM57 (good mics, for sure, but not the best choice for a 'live' bass cab, imho...). If he cannot adjust the mix between mic and DI either, he's basically got his hands tied.
Solution..? In my experience, a decent chat with the desk engi on your specific sound requirements should do. If he's cooperative, problem solved. If not, he surely won't be best pleased, anyway, with your proposition.
If your sound is 'created' by the cab's characteristics, you need micing, I agree. I doubt, though, that this factor alone (ie: just the cab colouration...) justifies the somewhat extreme lengths you're going to. Give the bloke your 'dirty' DI, without the cab in the equation, and have confidence that he knows how to best get that through his FOH.
Hope this helps; subject to correction, completion and/or contradiction from others.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Dad3353

[LukeFRC]

I'll start by saying I'm not sure how big venues you are playing here....
also in my exp the sound guy is either going to want a DI signal straight or if he/she does mic your cab they will want to use their mic and be able to control the balance of the two signals...

so say you do mic up your amp with a SM57, your amp's going to need to be loud enough that the mic doesn't pick up any drums.... but quiet enough that your stage volume, both individually and as a band isn't too loud... a tightrope....

When I was talking about Eq I didn't mean the hand/bass/pedals/amp side of it - you know what you're doing there.... what I meant is that your speaker cab will be adding it's own Eq to the sound. For instance something fancy like a barefaced Big baby will have quite a flat response and lots of high and low end, a bit like a PA speaker, a Ampeg 810 fridge will have a smooth roll off of the low end but it won't go as low or as high, my current cab has a massive punchy 6dB peak at about 100Hz that makes it punch and kick like a mule..... your speaker cab will have it's own sound - this is what the difference is between your DI signal and what you're hearing.... that's the problem that IMO IME you would be best trying to solve with a simple solution.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1388166126' post='2319062']
... otherwise some way of Eqing the signal to roll off the top end that goes to the PA would work...
[/quote]

Which is exactly what the DI's with built-in speaker simulation do ...

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1388152800' post='2318910']
so up for trying this a temp fix (who knows it could work) but im guessing its safer to just buy a xlr to jack and use the di out on the amp rather than inline with the speaker cables
[/quote]

It would be better also because the DI out on your amp wont change with your amps master volume so you wont upset the DI FOH mix with small adjustments to your stage volume.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1388180441' post='2319296']
I'll start by saying I'm not sure how big venues you are playing here....
also in my exp the sound guy is either going to want a DI signal straight or if he/she does mic your cab they will want to use their mic and be able to control the balance of the two signals...

so say you do mic up your amp with a SM57, your amp's going to need to be loud enough that the mic doesn't pick up any drums.... but quiet enough that your stage volume, both individually and as a band isn't too loud... a tightrope....

When I was talking about Eq I didn't mean the hand/bass/pedals/amp side of it - you know what you're doing there.... what I meant is that your speaker cab will be adding it's own Eq to the sound. For instance something fancy like a barefaced Big baby will have quite a flat response and lots of high and low end, a bit like a PA speaker, a Ampeg 810 fridge will have a smooth roll off of the low end but it won't go as low or as high, my current cab has a massive punchy 6dB peak at about 100Hz that makes it punch and kick like a mule..... your speaker cab will have it's own sound - this is what the difference is between your DI signal and what you're hearing.... that's the problem that IMO IME you would be best trying to solve with a simple solution.
[/quote]

I am buying a rack eq atm could run the di thru that maybe? How would i be able to find out the eq of the cab?

Were all pretty gd on volume

Ill have a chat with a sound man friend and see what he thinks aswell as we do soundcheck so could solo each supply.

I just think weve all been taught to settle ! Lol

[0175westwood29]

If your sound is 'created' by the cab's characteristics, you need micing, I agree. I doubt, though, that this factor alone (ie: just the cab colouration...) justifies the somewhat extreme lengths you're going to. Give the bloke your 'dirty' DI, without the cab in the equation, and have confidence that he knows how to best get that through his FOH.

totally forgot to say this, i trust that they know more about this than i do defiantly but we've all had the sound guys who tell us to change our eq's or have eq's in there mind for bass already .

i actually think some guys might actually like it.

andy

[Lozz196]

That`s a very good point - preconditioned bass eq. In one of my bands we have 2 basses, mine is a traditional old-school tone, the other is a twangy distorted tone. Even sending these tones to the desk via our pedals, we still have to go out front and say "no, they`re not both meant to sound the same" and get the desk to actually get our original sounds back. But then with so many bands on a bill, and with 15min changeovers you can`t blame a soundman for having a generic bass sound that fits well in the mix and works with the drums.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1388227108' post='2319598']
That`s a very good point - preconditioned bass eq. In one of my bands we have 2 basses, mine is a traditional old-school tone, the other is a twangy distorted tone. Even sending these tones to the desk via our pedals, we still have to go out front and say "no, they`re not both meant to sound the same" and get the desk to actually get our original sounds back. But then with so many bands on a bill, and with 15min changeovers you can`t blame a soundman for having a generic bass sound that fits well in the mix and works with the drums.
[/quote]

not at all, actually at our last gig (and kinda where this idea came from) they mic'd the cab and took a di from my head my sound check took about 2 secs i think he said he kept things pretty flat.

he was using a big ish mic tho not a 57 so could it have been a directional mic ? as my amp was between the 2nd guitarist and drums?

andy

[Dad3353]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1388228829' post='2319633']...he was using a big ish mic tho...[/quote]

Now look here, if you're going to go all technical on us, we'll [i]never [/i]be able to help you..!

...

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1388232213' post='2319700']
Now look here, if you're going to go all technical on us, we'll [i]never [/i]be able to help you..!

...


[/quote]

haha! i know right! from here on i cut out the technical jargon lol

[6v6]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1388228829' post='2319633']
not at all, actually at our last gig (and kinda where this idea came from) they mic'd the cab and took a di from my head my sound check took about 2 secs i think he said he kept things pretty flat.

he was using a big ish mic tho not a 57 so could it have been a directional mic ? as my amp was between the 2nd guitarist and drums?
[/quote]

There are *lots* of big ish mics which would be better for a bass cab than a 57.

If you've found that some engineers will mic the cab anyway, I'm not really sure why you'd want the effort and expense of doing it all yourself, save yourself hundreds and just buy the guy doing the sound a pint while asking him nicely to mic and DI, problem solved!

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1388245899' post='2319925']
There are *lots* of big ish mics which would be better for a bass cab than a 57.

If you've found that some engineers will mic the cab anyway, I'm not really sure why you'd want the effort and expense of doing it all yourself, save yourself hundreds and just buy the guy doing the sound a pint while asking him nicely to mic and DI, problem solved!
[/quote]

really know very little about mics so thats why i went for the 57 would something like similar to a kickdrum mic be better?

thing is alot around my area wnt they have the di and thats it, the best sound ive had was at a medium sized club where they did both,

looking at it and getting this [url="http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X1204USB.aspx"]http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X1204USB.aspx[/url] instead of the rackmount mixer as i can use this for home recording, gives me enough to mix the di and mic together.

i know it seems like im spending money for little gain, but ive spent money on my cab and effects that i want to be heard you know, aslong as i tell the soundguy or gal what im doing then they can't get angry or confused.

and i plan on sending it through flat so i wnt be eqing the signal i send to foh

andy

[Bankai]

I would get the Behringer GI100 and connect it between your head and cab, enable the speaker emulation and then just let him plug into it.

No need for mixing signals, or mics. That alone should sound fine!

Edited December 28, 2013 by Bankai

[keeponehandloose]

[quote name='Bankai' timestamp='1388251383' post='2320023']
I would get the Behringer GI100 and connect it between your head and cab, enable the speaker emulation and then just let him plug into it.

No need for mixing signals, or mics. That alone should sound fine!
[/quote]
DONT do this!
the high powered signal from the amps speaker outs will wreak havoc on such a piece of kit

[Bankai]

[quote name='keeponehandloose' timestamp='1388254960' post='2320061']
DONT do this!
the high powered signal from the amps speaker outs will wreak havoc on such a piece of kit
[/quote]

No. The Behringer GI100 is safe to connect to loads of up to 3000W.


Check the product page please: [url="http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/GI100.aspx"]http://www.behringer...ucts/GI100.aspx[/url]

Edited December 28, 2013 by Bankai

[Dad3353]

[quote name='keeponehandloose' timestamp='1388254960' post='2320061']
DONT do this!
the high powered signal from the amps speaker outs will wreak havoc on such a piece of kit
[/quote]

Perhaps, but that's what the manufacturer designed it to do. Here's their manual...

[url="http://www.behringer.com/assets/GI100_P0137_M_EN.pdf"]GI100 manual...[/url]

You're right, though, with regard to many other di's, but this one can handle up to 3kw, it would seem.

Edit: too late..!

Edited December 28, 2013 by Dad3353

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='Bankai' timestamp='1388255672' post='2320084']
No. The Behringer GI100 is safe to connect to loads of up to 3000W.


Check the product page please: [url="http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/GI100.aspx"]http://www.behringer...ucts/GI100.aspx[/url]
[/quote]

i did see something about a grounding issue with this as using this with a class d amp like my orange? it was mentioned earlier in the thread, something about speaker outs not being earthed?

andy

[Bankai]

Hmm. Not something I've come across before

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1388257242' post='2320123']
i did see something about a grounding issue with this as using this with a class d amp like my orange? it was mentioned earlier in the thread, something about speaker outs not being earthed?

andy
[/quote] yeah someone said that.... ground not being true ground on a switch mode power supply.... makes sense I guess.
but for what you want you could just use it in the effects loop, DI to desk, link to the return.... the "tone" of your amp will be in the preamp so no need to capture the power amp side

[Beer of the Bass]

I can't see that there would be any benefit in running a speaker level DI with a Class-D amp. They're designed so that the power amp is relatively uncoloured and not run into clipping in normal use, with all of the dirt and tone shaping coming from the preamp. Speaker level DIs tend to be used with all-valve amps where the power amp is considered an important part of the character.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1388274964' post='2320421']
I can't see that there would be any benefit in running a speaker level DI with a Class-D amp. They're designed so that the power amp is relatively uncoloured and not run into clipping in normal use, with all of the dirt and tone shaping coming from the preamp. Speaker level DIs tend to be used with all-valve amps where the power amp is considered an important part of the character.
[/quote]

true i doubt the amps adding anything, or if it is it wnt be adding like a valve power section would.

[Monckyman]

This is IMO just another "I don't trust the engineer with my finely crafted delicate bass tone.man"
Unless you have your own engineer with whom you can explore bass tones and their context, ie your band, you are going to have to trust the house engineer until you do.
You can help out buy providing a good di tone, for example a sansamp or similar with your tone set up already on it, rather than rely on the houses ancient behringer d.is,or take your feed from your head post EQ ( not something I'd recommend as the EQ you use for your speaker cab will almost certainly not suit the P.A requirements).
If you really want a mic, ask for a mic, but dont be surprised if you don't get it, as unless you have a very specific cab tone (yes of course you have don't you?) it will be widely regarded as a luxury by hard pressed engineers.
Pre mixing a mic and a DI into a cheap noisy behringer £40 mixer completely defeats the point of trying to get a better tone to the P.A.
All IMO of course.

[0175westwood29]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1388329334' post='2320788']
This is IMO just another "I don't trust the engineer with my finely crafted delicate bass tone.man"
Unless you have your own engineer with whom you can explore bass tones and their context, ie your band, you are going to have to trust the house engineer until you do.
You can help out buy providing a good di tone, for example a sansamp or similar with your tone set up already on it, rather than rely on the houses ancient behringer d.is,or take your feed from your head post EQ ( not something I'd recommend as the EQ you use for your speaker cab will almost certainly not suit the P.A requirements).
If you really want a mic, ask for a mic, but dont be surprised if you don't get it, as unless you have a very specific cab tone (yes of course you have don't you?) it will be widely regarded as a luxury by hard pressed engineers.
Pre mixing a mic and a DI into a cheap noisy behringer £40 mixer completely defeats the point of trying to get a better tone to the P.A.
All IMO of course.
[/quote]

i can see where your coming from, but i suppose this all leads back to a point that i think always and will always irk and displease me a bit.

i actually do work hard getting a sound that fits in with the wall of guitars that is metal, my sound has changed from a clean sound with a bit of grit into a dirty tone that sits in with the guitars but doesnt get lost.

i just really dnt see why we as bassists should have to sit back and watch the guitarists get mic'd and have there distortion come across as intended and we get looked at like we've done something bad if i ask if he can mic me, or are as you say causing a problem for the hard pressed engineer. ive heard a guitar line out with no cab it sounded awful just fizz (can't imagine they be happy if they were told to put a di box instead of a mic)

ive asked a few of my friends on facebook and asked if they would have a problem is someone did this and have actually got positive feedback about the idea off them.

i always send my di post eq, as i know this sounds selfish but they are meant to be amplifying me, not doing as some would(not everyone) making the bass sound how they like it, ive never had complaints about this.

i dnt think i should have to accept that i should di as its easier, as ive said above i dnt want to remove the di completely but have a 70/30 or what ever sounds best mic/di mix.

please dnt take this as me being snobby, but i actually feel the cab adds something.

the last gig we did was a small stage low stage volume but the mic infront of the cab caused no probs for the sound crew at all.

thats a long winded way of saying that we get rough treatment, obviously if you play clean this is much less or no problem.

andy

[Monckyman]

IMO D.Id basses and D.Id guitars are nothing at all alike.
But, if you feel your cab adds to your tone, then go for the mic thang.
I don't agree that your cab,with a mic, can provide tonal differences in your venue derived sound that can't be achieved via easier methods, ie a sansamp or similar.
Good luck.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='0175westwood29' timestamp='1388334138' post='2320867']
i just really dnt see why we as bassists should have to sit back and watch the guitarists get mic'd and have there distortion come across as intended and we get looked at like we've done something bad
[/quote]

I think this sense of indignation is getting in the way of you being objective with regard to to the role of the cab in your sound (applying a bit of EQ and probably not much else).

Edited December 29, 2013 by bassman7755