Fender Precision or a Musicman Stingray

[Dingus]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1389111103' post='2330136']
I've never quite understood this 'Stingrays are scooped'. I'd say a Jazz bass with both pups on is very scooped, whereas a Ray has peaks and scoops in the mids, but the mid frequences affected are different. Eg, most the Ray tones I like are very low mid aggressive, but of course you can roll up the bass and treble and make it scooped and modern which a lot of the slap bassists prefer.

A Stingray tends to kick like a mule...a very immediate feel to the pickup response, which is partly due to that low mid/high bass kick, and there must also be a peak in the high mids for the detail.

I think P basses, whilst ALWAYS popular, are VERY much in fashion at the moment. I remember back in the mid 90s when people thought I was weird buying a MIJ Precision. This was also when Orange were big with Oasis using their amps, way before they revved up and became super popular like they are now. Times change a lot.

Thing is, boutique manufacturers are bound to make P bass copies, because they are selling! The Super Jazz is still a big seller, but the P is everywhere now. To be honest, I think charging £2.5k for a P bass which isn't a vintage Fender is crazy. It is a VERY simple design.

To me, the P is great, but I'd choose a Fender American Standard everytime over a boutique P copy.

People don't copy the Ray so much because they can't. Aguilar however are now starting to make a MM style pickup.
[/quote]

I agree with you entirely that the Stingray has scoops [i]and[/i] peaks in its' midrange, and it is exactly that that makes those basses sound so individualistic. To my ears at least, though, I would put things the other way round and say the scoop was in the low mids and the peak in the upper mids, but that impression is certainly open to conjecture because that bass has got such a weird and spread-out frequency response that it can be very hard to accurately quantify and describe. Whatever the technical reason , most people would agree that a Stingray can certainly be made to cut through most mixes if you EQ it appropriately, albeit with a different kind of presence than you get with a Precision Bass , or a Jazz for that matter.

The scooped tone of a Jazz Bass with both pickups is often more audible in a mix than you might think when hearing it soloed, again depending on how you EQ it. The Jazz Bass has such an inherently complex midrange that it has more than one way to make itself heard in an ensemble situation , and that is one of the many beauties of that design.

Ultimately, we are comparing chalk and cheese, and it's a good thing that Fender basses and Musicman basses do sound so different, what with variety being the spice of life, and all that. If a Stingray had a more honky midrange then it would just be a Precision Bass with a primitive preamp and the pickup an inch further towards the bridge, and what would be the point in that? Some great players - Tony Levin is the best example I can think of , but there many others- have taken that unique Stingray tone and exploited its' sonic potential to great effect. If they had just tried to make it sound generic or like a Fender then a lot would have been lost in the process .

Edited January 7, 2014 by Dingus

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Tdw' timestamp='1389109729' post='2330113']
I play mostly reggae so for me it would be a precision, i agree with what Steff said about stingrays lacking warmth on the lowest notes although i do like my stingray a lot.
[/quote]

This can be achieved by simply playing over the neck joint on a Stingray and ensuring you don't have treble boosted. Better still use a Ray HH or HS (and they scoop like Jazzes with both pick ups on so my experience is boosting the mids can be helpful).

I believe it's the upper mid which scoops on a Stingray (indeed a guy showed me on a recorded track I did - you can boost this with the mid control on a 3 band or by avoiding too much boost on a 2 band - and also by amp settings.

I also think that many people commenting on this thread talk of the sound they hear on stage in front of their amp - the sound out front can be very different. Believe me I have heard more Fender P and J basses disappear in mixes than I care to remember - indeed that is why people started pre amping basses in the 70s. Yes amps have improved and speakers but how many people do I hear waxing lyrical over 60s valve amp and P set ups nowadays - yes those very ones that disappeared into the mix in those 60s and 70s days?

As Grand Wazoo said, the OP needs to try the basses for himself - a bass guitar is a tool and the way it is played has as much if not more bearing than the bass itself. The P and Ray are both excellent tools. Just remember the likes of Larry Taylor, Jamerson, Babbitt smacked hell out of their basses to get those sounds - watch Leo Lyons of ten years after back in the 60s and 70s - same thing. I once talked at length with a guy who ran a company providing back line and PA for many touring acts of that era - he particularly mentioned Kool of Kool and the Gang - whose P bass action was said to be phenominally high and the bass was equipped with flatwounds of some tension. These guys really had to play their basses quite hard. Most of these bass players were, of course ex double bass players who were accustomed to a certain amount of physical effort and high action - this is the heritage the P bass comes from - the Ray comes from the mid 70s where bass guitarists were exploring more technical ways of playing - not only in soul and funk but it permeated right through to studio contrived middle of the road pop and even orchestras backing variety shows on tele such as Morecombe and Wise etc - even to tele themes. Jaco esque fretless became very popular and I have just bought two albums, one by Gary Numan and one by Paul Young where Pino exploits the fretless Ray's ability to do this - not all one sided - listen to Boz Burrell on a fretless P on tunes like Feel Like Making Love - Bad Company.

None of this is about that bass cuts through and this one doesn't - I believe much of that is down to individual skill and not allowing sound people to ruin your sound.

Both the P and the Ray are excellent groove player's basses. The Ray can be made to be a bit more of a solo type instrument but don't get hung up on that - they can both groove great!!

Remember the bass is a tool to allow the player to express themselves - the rest is down to the skill of the player. OP try them - hopefully with an open mind!!

[Tdw]

Reply to Dr. TStingray, although playing over the neck and cutting treble will help (as on any bass) the sound is still poor on the lowest few notes (for reggae and similar) when compared to a fender, as you say a two pickup musicman would work fine because it has a suitably placed pickup for this sound, the standard stingray does not.

[Tdw]

[quote name='Tdw' timestamp='1389135335' post='2330619']
Reply to Dr. TStingray, although playing over the neck and cutting treble will help (as on any bass) the sound is still poor on the lowest few notes (for reggae and similar) when compared to a fender, as you say a two pickup musicman would work fine because it has a suitably placed pickup for this sound, the standard stingray does not.
[/quote]

Btw I completely agree about stingrays cutting through the mix.

[peteb]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1389125122' post='2330408']

listen to Boz Burrell on a fretless P on tunes like Feel Like Making Love - Bad Company.

[/quote]
FWIW - Boz also used a Stingray in Bad Company!

I had a Stingray for a while that I acquired as makeweight in a trade for an old P bass that I wasn't using! It was never my main bass (even though I gigged it a fair bit) and I moved it on after a while. However, it was definitely one of those basses that I missed after I'd sold it and I wouldn't mind another one at some point! I certainly never had any problem with it not being heard in a mix!

Having said all that, I may well buy another P bass when a couple of basses I have for sale eventually go. This will be because a lot of the people that I might end up playing with seem to prefer them at the moment...

[drTStingray]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1389140185' post='2330677']
Having said all that, I may well buy another P bass when a couple of basses I have for sale eventually go. This will be because a lot of the people that I might end up playing with seem to prefer them at the moment...
[/quote]

I presume these other people are not bassists - I think I can guess what instrument they play. I must say this problem has never affected me though I've been asked by other musicians who I wasn't working with why I didn't use a Precision!! I think that people have not been bothered what instrument I used (though some would probably have baulked at a Flying V bass or similar!!) and were interested in how the sound and playing enhanced the music as a whole. A Stingray probably looks very similar to a P or a J to Joe Public particularly in sunburst or black.

I see this analogous with the electrician questioning or dictating what instrument the carpenter should use or at a different level, the vicar or accountant dictating the equipment the surgeon should use..........

Thankfully for many of us the above doesn't happen as a result of professional or craft rules and legislation - there has long been a belief amongst some musicians that owning of guitars by some people should be outlawed!!!!!!!!

[action_panzer]

Just my 2ps worth...They are so different its hard to pick one over the other. I love the classic P sound, and I think a P is a very user friendly bass - it doesn't take much to dial in the classic tone.

Having said that, every time I play my P, I miss the 'thump' and aggression of the StingRay, and more often than not when I play my SR I don't miss the P all that much...

As far as quality goes, I can't say, I haven't played an American Fender P, so when I go back to the SR it always feels like a 'proper' bass, as it is clearly a much more substantial, higher quality instrument than my Squier P bass.

On tone its a matter of taste

[peteb]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1389168629' post='2330736']


I presume these other people are not bassists - I think I can guess what instrument they play. I must say this problem has never affected me though I've been asked by other musicians who I wasn't working with why I didn't use a Precision!! I think that people have not been bothered what instrument I used (though some would probably have baulked at a Flying V bass or similar!!) and were interested in how the sound and playing enhanced the music as a whole. A Stingray probably looks very similar to a P or a J to Joe Public particularly in sunburst or black.

I see this analogous with the electrician questioning or dictating what instrument the carpenter should use or at a different level, the vicar or accountant dictating the equipment the surgeon should use..........

Thankfully for many of us the above doesn't happen as a result of professional or craft rules and legislation - there has long been a belief amongst some musicians that owning of guitars by some people should be outlawed!!!!!!!!
[/quote]
I think that many bandleaders (not just guitarists) just feel a warm glow of reassurance when they see you pull a Precision out of the bag (US Fender of course)! It depends on genres, but generally passive Fenders seem to be in fashion these days - just look at the posts from many bass players on this very forum.

Personally I would prefer the heft of a Precision rather than a Jazz if I am forced to use a passive bass. Having said that, someone has just sent me a youtube clip of me playing a passive Nash Jazz a couple of years ago and it sounds great out front, but I was never convinced with what I was hearing on stage...

Edited January 9, 2014 by peteb

[gsgbass]

The Fender Precision.

Edited November 27, 2014 by gsgbass

[DaytonaRik]

Ok, so I'm a relative newcomer to the world of bass as a long time guitarist and am no fan-boy of either model, but I struggle with this whole "P bass is better" argument. Just how can a single p/u bass with a basic tone/volume circuit be more versatile than a splitable p/u with a 3 band active EQ...and that's without including the HH/HS options?

If I was to make a guitar-based comparison, it's akin to someone swearing their single P90 shod Gibson Les Paul Jnr is more versatile than a PRS Custom 24 with multiple coil taped p/us.

Whilst I agree that a lot of great P players have produced a wide range of sounds, and the same be said for my guitar-based comparison, just how much of that variation comes from technique and amplification rather than the instrument itself?

Preference is one thing i.e. you may prefer one over another, but does that make it more versatile?

Just my thoughts on the argument.

[Lozz196]

I wouldn`t say more versatile, I`d say that due to where a Precision sits in the mix, plus the lack of features/options it`s easier to get a workable sound quickly.

[MikanHannille]

I like the sound of the stingray aside from what have previously been mentioned lack of warmth on the low end. I do like the feel as well. But for some reason I prefer pbass over stingray.

[mcnach]

[quote name='DaytonaRik' timestamp='1389861954' post='2338679']
Ok, so I'm a relative newcomer to the world of bass as a long time guitarist and am no fan-boy of either model, but I struggle with this whole "P bass is better" argument. Just how can a single p/u bass with a basic tone/volume circuit be more versatile than a splitable p/u with a 3 band active EQ...and that's without including the HH/HS options?

If I was to make a guitar-based comparison, it's akin to someone swearing their single P90 shod Gibson Les Paul Jnr is more versatile than a PRS Custom 24 with multiple coil taped p/us.

Whilst I agree that a lot of great P players have produced a wide range of sounds, and the same be said for my guitar-based comparison, just how much of that variation comes from technique and amplification rather than the instrument itself?

Preference is one thing i.e. you may prefer one over another, but does that make it more versatile?

Just my thoughts on the argument.
[/quote]

The versatility idea is often misguided, I feel.
I went through a phase, using a stratocaster, of "let's get all possible sounds out of this guitar" with complex wiring and switches. IN the end I got a guitar that had a miriad tones, most quite similar to others, and where the nuances would get lost the minute you're not playing the guitar by itself in a quiet environment... which ended up with my admitting that -in my opinion- it was a futile quest, having found only one extra interesting tone (neck and bridge pickups together in parallel).

Let's move to bass now. Splittable humbucker? Cool, and yes there is a difference. But it's hardly day and night and whilst I have a preference, it tends to be that I prefer one of the sound possibilities and stick with it, getting whatever tonal variations I need from amp or preamp controls.

The Stingray is more versatile to me, because of the preamp. No doubt. But I normally don't change tones too much... I may go "deeper" or "crispier", but that's about it, and a lot of people manage that with a Precision just fine. Ultimately, I prefer the sound of the Stingray, as it sits right in the mix (the way I want it) easily and it sounds mighty. So I use a Stingray live nearly always. Others get the same feeling I do, but using a Precision. I don't think it's about the range of tones so much as about getting a sound that works well and is easy to achieve. I think that's what P-bass fans talk about when they say that a P bass works with everything.

[badboy1984]

I've own a musician bongo, fender jazz and a part build precision. I ended up using the precision more because it sound good on its own and can easily get a workable sound without messing with onboard EQ too much ......

My fender jazz use to have j-retro installed but i've turned it back to all passive because i prefer less then more these days now.

The bongo i got, i love it but more EQ option on the bass means more messing around then actually playing .....

[donkelley]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1388599391' post='2323881']
But the 3EQ is not "a 2EQ plus a mids control", it's a different design and it is not a surprise they do not sound the same. Not saying one is better than the other, just that they are different.
The John East MMSR 3-band *is* a 2EQ plus an extra mids module.
[/quote]

I'm glad that people have been pointing this out.

The problem with the 3 eq is the exact opposite of what was originally described... it actually WAS redesigned from scratch and completely screwed up as a result. The John East is an example of a real stingray 2 band with an extra circuit add-on for mid sweep, and it's outstanding. I use similar add on mid sweep modules myself these days (have an emg one added onto the 2band in my carvin bass) and intend on doing the same thing to my fretless ebmm 5 string USA sub (which is effectively a 5 string version of a 4 string vintage 2 band stingray).

[Dingus]

[quote name='donkelley' timestamp='1389932974' post='2339698']
I'm glad that people have been pointing this out.

The problem with the 3 eq is the exact opposite of what was originally described... it actually WAS redesigned from scratch and completely screwed up as a result. The John East is an example of a real stingray 2 band with an extra circuit add-on for mid sweep, and it's outstanding. I use similar add on mid sweep modules myself these days (have an emg one added onto the 2band in my carvin bass) and intend on doing the same thing to my fretless ebmm 5 string USA sub (which is effectively a 5 string version of a 4 string vintage 2 band stingray).
[/quote]

That preamp may have been redesigned from scratch , but the point is that whoever did it- if indeed their brief was to retain the same Stingray tone- didn't take into account the degree of interactivity between the controls. Maybe because that three band preamp was created primarily for the Stingray 5, which is a very different beast overall, that explains why it changes the overall characteristic of a regular four string version .

I think the preamp on the three band Stingray is perfectly adequate ( especially on the five string version ) , and I personally don't particularly mind the current three EQ version as a four string - it sounds close enough to a Stingray for my tastes- but there is no doubt that the old two band basses sound different, especially pre-EBMM. If I had a three band Stingray I wouldn't be chopping it up for firewood, that's for sure, but , for whatever reason , in use the two band is a different proposition overall.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Dingus

[4000]

[quote name='DaytonaRik' timestamp='1389861954' post='2338679']
Ok, so I'm a relative newcomer to the world of bass as a long time guitarist and am no fan-boy of either model, but I struggle with this whole "P bass is better" argument. Just how can a single p/u bass with a basic tone/volume circuit be more versatile than a splitable p/u with a 3 band active EQ...and that's without including the HH/HS options?

If I was to make a guitar-based comparison, it's akin to someone swearing their single P90 shod Gibson Les Paul Jnr is more versatile than a PRS Custom 24 with multiple coil taped p/us.

Whilst I agree that a lot of great P players have produced a wide range of sounds, and the same be said for my guitar-based comparison, just how much of that variation comes from technique and amplification rather than the instrument itself?

Preference is one thing i.e. you may prefer one over another, but does that make it more versatile?

Just my thoughts on the argument.
[/quote]

I've had - and have played - many basses with all sorts of bells and whistles where none of them are actually useable in a mix (hence why most of them have gone). People would say a Wal Custom is extremely versatile with the filters but when I had mine I couldn't get a single sound out of it that worked in my band, whereas my cheapie P is useable pretty much throughout its range. Being able to do lots of useless things isn't really versatile.

Edited January 17, 2014 by 4000

[drTStingray]

[quote name='DaytonaRik' timestamp='1389861954' post='2338679']
Ok, so I'm a relative newcomer to the world of bass as a long time guitarist and am no fan-boy of either model, but I struggle with this whole "P bass is better" argument. Just how can a single p/u bass with a basic tone/volume circuit be more versatile than a splitable p/u with a 3 band active EQ...and that's without including the HH/HS options?

If I was to make a guitar-based comparison, it's akin to someone swearing their single P90 shod Gibson Les Paul Jnr is more versatile than a PRS Custom 24 with multiple coil taped p/us.

Whilst I agree that a lot of great P players have produced a wide range of sounds, and the same be said for my guitar-based comparison, just how much of that variation comes from technique and amplification rather than the instrument itself?

Preference is one thing i.e. you may prefer one over another, but does that make it more versatile?

Just my thoughts on the argument.
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more - it really is a daft argument of the type you hear in car owning circles - x bog standard car (just happens to be the one they chose) is as good as y gt sports version because you can't get the best out of the gt version because the traffic gets in the way...........as someone who's played bass for over 40 years the idea the Precision wins in this match is plain bonkers - yes it is good at some things, but basically bread and butter things virtually any bass is good at.

There must be more internet myths hatched about the Stingray than many other basses - fact is for me they have been the basses used on lots of memorable music - anyone who couldn't get one to sit in a mix properly hasn't tried very hard or is not using the right techniques to achieve it.

I just listened to White Boys and Heroes by Gary Numan - nice Pino slapped line - and you could NOT get a precision in that ball park if you had the skill and wanted to.

[drTStingray]

[quote name='donkelley' timestamp='1389932974' post='2339698']


I'm glad that people have been pointing this out.

The problem with the 3 eq is the exact opposite of what was originally described... it actually WAS redesigned from scratch and completely screwed up as a result. The John East is an example of a real stingray 2 band with an extra circuit add-on for mid sweep, and it's outstanding.
[/quote]

I fail to see how the standard Stingray 3EQ is screwed up!! Simply boosting bass and treble a little and cutting mid a little creates the 2 band sound more or less exactly. I have examples of both which I use constantly, and I use this as a reference point. The 3 EQ has more mid at centre detent than a 2EQ with mild bass and treble boost - I have and use a Stingray fretless quite regularly and it is a 3EQ. I can get the Pino sound with this without problem, but have the added advantage of being able to adjust the mids on the fly - very useful on fretless to bring up the harmonics if needed and certainly useful for those rooms with funny acoustics and those songs where the guitarists and keyboard player start impinging into the 'bass frequency zone'. It is equally useful on a fretted one.

The East pre amp is interesting - apparently (so I've heard) based on his 76 Ray. The interesting thing here is that the 2 band EQ was developed and there were several upgrades (using software terminology) over the years until 1979 - the 1979 version has been used to date. But based on what I've heard, what people are buying is the early version of the Ray pre amp with a mid sweep control. You pays your money and takes your choice I guess!!

[drTStingray]

[quote name='Grand Wazoo' timestamp='1389107135' post='2330050']
Oh and don't blame Strings & Things either, for they are also being remotely controlled via the "Matrix" by none other than Big Poppadum dum dum himself!


[b][size=1]Disclaimer all of above was meant only as irony, got that? [/size][/b]
[/quote]

Hilarious............and probably true :-) :-) :-)

[mcnach]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1390058589' post='2341016']
The East pre amp is interesting - apparently (so I've heard) based on his 76 Ray. The interesting thing here is that the 2 band EQ was developed and there were several upgrades (using software terminology) over the years until 1979 - the 1979 version has been used to date. But based on what I've heard, what people are buying is the early version of the Ray pre amp with a mid sweep control. You pays your money and takes your choice I guess!!
[/quote]

I have a 2002 Stingray that was 2EQ. I ended up getting the 3-band John East one. The 2EQ section of it is *very* similar to the original on my bass (presumably based on a 79 design?), but I felt the John East was less brittle on the highs, and the bottom end a bit more... "focused", I'd say. Either way, I liked it better. Now, I am not sure whether this is the true difference between the 76 and 79 designs, or just John East's take on it... but whatever it is, I like it better.

[iconic]

I have never had a weak/quiet G string with a precision.

runs for cover steel helmet and flak jacket on!

[chriswareham]

Stingray for me. I find Precision necks feel too chunky, and Jazz necks too narrow. The Stingray feels like it has the width of Precision, but with less depth to the back of the neck. Suits my hands perfectly. Sound wise, I find I can leave the EQ flat on rehearsal room or shared back line amps and just use the three band EQ on the 'Ray. Never had a problem with the scooped mids, even with my previous two band EQ 'Ray, although I do find myself boosting the mids on occasion now that I have the option.

[Japhet]

I recently put a set of lighter strings on my Ray which are coming straight back off. 45 - 105 from now on. Have played a few Precisions but never owned one and I've always loved the way the Stingray starts to bark when you get stuck in. Never got that out of a Precision.

[bobdouk]

Precision and stingray are 2 very different beasts.Its no better than the other
P bass is THE bass sound, especially with flats.If you want to support the band and make that glue to blend drums with guitar, precision is the right tool.
Its about preferance.For me ..I cant play precisions, so simply...i find them open and slow, i want a more focused tone.

Stingrays cant blend like a p bass, but thats not my tone.I like to cut more, i want to be heard.If you have good time and you not overplaying, everyone in a band likes that.Its not a forgiving bass, so every note matters.As for p basses.I enjoy them a lot when i hear someone else play it.At my hands p bass just doesnt work