Scale length (again)

[Count Bassy]

I am a fan of 32" scale basses, although the general consensus seems that they don't have the same tone as a 34" scale, and that 35" is better again.

Anyway:

I've just bought a second hand Ibanez GWB35 - a 34" scale 5 string (I would have gone for 32" again except 5 string lined fretless 32" scale basses don't seem to exist within my budget).

Anyway this is my first 5 string and I've found myself playing it up around the 5th fret, i.e. if I want to play in E I'm 'basing' it around the B string at the 5th fret rather than the open E string, dropping down the B string for the low notes as required (bear in mind that this is my first 5 string experience and I'm still finding my way)

Anyway, what this is leading up to is that I find the E produced at the 5th fret of the B string is perfectly acceptable, a slightly different tone to the open E, but acceptable.

So, if I were to use the same gauge strings shouldn't I be able to build a 26.5" scale bass (i.e. 3/4 of 34") tuned E to C, with perfectly acceptable results? String tensions would be exactly the same as in the 5 string (wouldn't they?), and the tone on the E string would be similar to a B string fretted at the 5th (i.e. acceptable).

I suppose that what I'm really getting around to that if a 34" scale 4 string bass, drop tuned to a D on the Estring, still produces an acceptable E tone at the second fret, then why shouldn't a 32" scale bass, using the same string gauge produce an equally acceptable E on the open string?

This seems logical to me, but is contrary to what most people here seem to say.


Just my thoughts, interested in yours.

[Count Bassy]

Well, I'm amazed. I was expecting a good slapping for my heretic tendencies!

I can't believe that my thoughts we're that compelling that there was nothing to add, so I guess thay must have been really really stoopid (sic).

Come on, someone either put me right or argue with me.

Clive

[Musky]

I'm not sure I can put you right or argue with you.

That makes sense to me, though I can't help but wonder why you might want to go to the expense of buying a 5 string set just to discard the G?

[fretlessguy]

Clive-

Not to set you straight or argue. You make some interesting points.
As far as a shorter scale having an "inferior" tone, I would be inclined to disagree. Granted, some of the shorter scale basses are usually weak in the lower end. I would say this is more likely due to inferior build quality than length of scale, since most short scales are of the student variety. I have an Epiphone Allan Woody (30 inch scale) that can really punch out the low end. Well made short scales can sound as good as a long scale.
There are some tonal differences between the different scales. I would not say one is superior or inferior to the other. Tension, despite the scale, tends to go up with the longer scale an lower with shorter ones. However, I had a Danelectro Longhorn, that when dressed with D'Addario short scale XL nickels (.45-.105) was still very high tensioned, so I went to a .40-.95 set of SITs to get the tension down to something more comfortable to play. String tension of a particular set will have an over all effect on the tone as well.
As for your question, the only 32 inch scale I ever owned was a Fender Stu Hamm urge bass. It had a very good tone on its E, more than average, excellent in my opinion. And yes, there will be differences between an open E and the E at the fifth fret of a five string B. I do not find its tone inferior or superior, just different. The feel of playing it would be different as well. I would, at least in theory, think a 28.5 inch scale tuned E to C would have less of a tension and a slightly different tone. But, why don't you go ahead and build one? That would be an interesting bass.
Doug

[alexclaber]

Longer scale doesn't make tone better or worse it, it makes it different. I've already written a ton on this elsewhere but you only have to experiment with different tunings to see how it affects things. To over-simplify, shorter equals more midrange, longer equals more top and bottom.

Alex

[bass_ferret]

26.5 is short short! Strings could be a problem. I think there is something to do with the speaking length of the string but I dont know - when you see some of these ERB players putting hairbands round the 12th fret to damp the strings that makes the scale of the bit they are playing a lot less than 26'5.

[endorka]

[quote name='Clive Thorne' post='230718' date='Jul 1 2008, 05:40 PM']Come on, someone either put me right or argue with me.[/quote]

Ok, I'll bite :-)

There does appear to be an optimal string length for the production of certain tones and frequencies. Thus the advent of those Dingwall "fanned fret" necks, with the treble strings being shorter than the bass strings. The shorter strings can produce the higher notes perfectly well, indeed if they were longer the tension would increase and they would be less playable. So at one extreme we have the violin, with a very short string length.

However, to produce a good bass tone with rich fundamental, a longer string length is indicated. That's why grand pianos sound more resonant and richer than a baby grand. The average double bass has a string length of 42", and the tone produced is unarguably deeper than a bass guitar at 34". I believe there is a ratio where if the diameter of a string gets too big in comparison to the length, the usability of the string is compromised. For example, bowing the E string of a double bass at the 12th "fret" octave is "interesting". It does not produce as good a tone as bowing the same E on the D string, which of course has greater length.

The good news is that it doesn't always matter. Not all music requires a deep, pronounced fundamental from the bass. Most people's stereo's can't reproduce it in any case. Some music seems to work well with this approach, although I don't think it is going to be so great on dub reggae records.

YMMV!

Jennifer

[SJA]

[quote name='Clive Thorne' post='229959' date='Jun 30 2008, 07:23 PM']I suppose that what I'm really getting around to that if a 34" scale 4 string bass, drop tuned to a D on the Estring, still produces an acceptable E tone at the second fret, then why shouldn't a 32" scale bass, using the same string gauge produce an equally acceptable E on the open string?[/quote]

true, I drop my E string to D when a D or E flat is needed,

but I prefer the sound of the open E in standard tuning to the E at the 2nd fret in drop D tuning (and all other notes on the E string)-
more definition and clarity

the extra low notes in drop-tuning are at the expense of tone on the notes available in standard tuning on the E string.
which is why I like detuner devices to switch quickly- sometimes in the same song for only when the extra low notes are needed.

[bnt]

Well... if I think of the kind of bass sound I like, I think of double bass, or piano, both of which use a higher string tension than the standard 34" bass. According to D'Addario, their low E strings are under about 35-40lbs of normal tension, lower than the other strings. Their Hybrid Helicore double bass strings are under 64-71lbs. A piano string is typically under 200+ lbs of tension!

In short, if I'm looking for a stronger bass fundamental, I want the string tension to go up, not down. So, if you reduce the scale, you've got to increase the string thickness, but there are limits to that. After a quick look around, I can't see any string makers who do short scale sets that are significantly thicker: they all seem to sell shorter versions of the same gauges.

[alexclaber]

To expand on my earlier point you have two limiting factors - string stiffness limits the higher harmonics and string length (or lack of it) limits the lower harmonics particularly the fundamental (due to the nature of wave theory).

Curiously despite upright basses having a longer scale length their acoustic nature means that all the fundamental energy is lost extremely quickly - they actually have hardly any output below 100Hz.

Increasing string thickness tends to not increase the amount of fundamental but actually decreases the amount of higher harmonics whilst allowing you to play slightly harder and giving the pickup more metal to sense, thus further increasing the output. Similar to turning a passive tone knob down and the volume up.

Alex