Need some theory help on a Herbie Lick

[lobematt]

Hey guys,

Just trying to get some language for a 7#11 chord, first port of call had to be Canteloupe Island!

So the first lick I transcribe seemed to be full of chromatic notes, on closer inspection he's basically running the C half/whole diminished scale bottom to top then keeps ascending chromatically to the #11 of the Db7#11

Can anyone shed some light on this? Is this a usual approach to this chord or does Herbie just do what he wants haha?

Thanks!

[JapanAxe]

Not familiar with the piece, but what role is the chord playing? If it's acting as a dominant (i.e. resolving to a Gb or a Gbm), pretty much any note goes.

[lobematt]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlRd1ph8GhQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlRd1ph8GhQ[/url]

The chords are

F-7|% % %
Db7#11| % % %
D-7|% % %
F-7...

[lobematt]

By the way, the lick in question comes in about 2:00 on the video

Edited January 2, 2014 by lobematt

[DaveFry]

I think of the sharp 11 here as a flattened 5th blue note .

In the F minor vamp he plays a B natural grace note sometimes , so I think he just follows the same idea with the Db 7 which also reminds the listener of the Fminor tonality .( Gnat as opposed to Gflat )

I think of the tune as basically a 12-bar blues with an extra 4 bars of the tonic added onto the end . The Db feels more like a Bb minor in 1st inversion ( clever ) , and when you'd expect the V chord at bar 9 he goes one step further than the standard ii V substitution and gives us the vi of F major ( genius ) and holds that for the 4 bars when you'd expect a vi ii V maybe .
So , to me , the sharp 11 over the Db ( where you'd expect the iv chord in a minor blues ) implies a staying with the sound of the implied Bb minor .( iv chord , bars 5 to 8 in a blues ).

-Just an Autistic opinion , in no way claimed as fact ....

[ambient]

A H/W diminished works because it contains the altered extensions similar as the altered or super locrian, flat 9, sharp 9, sharp 11 etc.

[lobematt]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1388701977' post='2325182']
A H/W diminished works because it contains the altered extensions similar as the altered or super locrian, flat 9, sharp 9, sharp 11 etc.
[/quote]

That would make sense! I was just wondering if it's common place?

Also is there any difference between the altered mode and super locrian? I always thought they were the same thing?

[ambient]

[quote name='lobematt' timestamp='1388746755' post='2325459']
That would make sense! I was just wondering if it's common place?

Also is there any difference between the altered mode and super locrian? I always thought they were the same thing?
[/quote]

Super locrian and altered are one and the same .

[XB26354]

Sounds like that lick is actually Db melodic minor. I hear the lick starting on Eb, down to C, then straight up the melodic minor scale - Db, Eb, Fb, Gb, Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb etc. ending in a Db minmaj9 chord.