Gig sound problems - help requested.

[GrahamT]

Hi All,

My band played a couple of gigs over Xmas but neither were on the money sound-wise. We are 2 x guitars, bass, drums, female singer. We are new to gigging, having only been together for about 18 months. A couple of friendly parties, a quick half hour set at a Beer Festival (PA/sound engineering provided) and local pub gig. Previously we have been practising together for our own enjoyment.

The one that really caused concern was in a village hall on a wooden stage over a storage void, a wooden floor which flexed, with a high ceiling. The hall was about 12 feet longer than a badminton court and a little wider. We were the support for a much more experienced band (10 years+ gigging) who brought the lights, front of house, desk, etc, etc. We each used our own backlines. I have a Phil Jones Bass Suitcase combo and 4B extension cab, rated together at 300w.

They soundchecked first with a near-empty hall. The bass sounded muddy but could be discerned in the mix. Their engineer/guitarist set the levels. Our turn - I am cable-free so I checked the levels both on-stage and in the hall. My bass was there but not punchy like it usually is so I pushed up the mids a bit. Again, there was a muddiness that I couldn't get rid of.

We played to a reasonably full hall. My Daughter's boyfriend has some experience in sound engineering so he manned the desk. On stage, we were very loud, overshadowing the singer. If the singer was turned up, there was feedback. Due to the small stage and two sets of backline, I was stuck standing right in front of my amp, making it difficult to hear myself and everybody else. I was told afterwards that the bass could be felt in the hall, but not heard as such. More of a thump, thump, thump. A bit of a mess really, but we got through reasonably unscathed and the audience were appreciative.

The other band then came on and they had the same problems. Their guitarist/engineer thought that it was because their drummer got over-enthusiastic and so everyone else had to turn up as well. Their male singer was drowned out and I couldn't distinguish the bass line until he had a bit of a solo. Feedback was a nightmare.

I have been thinking about the cause of the issues and have come to the conclusion that the sound problems were as a result of the temporary wooden stage over a large void, booming back the sound and feeding back through the microphones. What do you think, guys? Would Gramma pads have helped tame this? I had thought of sitting my stack on some memory foam from and old mattress, or raising it up off the floor on a camping table.

With regard to my problem hearing myself, would it be best to site the bass stack on the front of the stage and use a foldback monitor? I have an old Hartke Kickback combo with 15" driver that could be pressed into service, or a spare 2 x10 cab..

All advice gratefully received.

G

Edited January 3, 2014 by GrahamT

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='GrahamT' timestamp='1388745179' post='2325432']
On stage, we were very loud, overshadowing the singer.
[/quote]

That's part of your problem right there.

Some rooms are just terrible, and there's not a great deal you can do about it. You have to grin and bear them.

Keeping the stage volume down, and letting the PA do the work will help.

[Thurbs]

These types of gigs are a nightmare, especially if you are doing a festival/open mic/1hr slot etc. I just turn up and if I hear anything at all (even with a seconds delay hearing what comes off the back wall) then it is a bonus. As long as I can hear the drums then all is usually well with the world. It takes some practice & confidence but doesnt take long to comfortable.

The long term solution is probably not what you want to hear... but.... buy some IEMs, ditch the backline + monitors and everyone can enjoy crystal clear sound at a sensible level.

[lurksalot]

It sounds like one of those rooms that you can just write off to experience , we have played village halls and the the sound just bounces around them making it enarly impossible to get clarity with any volume , especially on a boomy stage to boot .
you will also find small function rooms that look tiny , and with only 80 people in, suck the sound out so much you cant turn it up enough !

[Les]

Turn down on stage.

Won't fix a duff room but it's a good place to start.

Les

[bonzodog]

Village hall, high ceiling, and wooden stage are all a recipe for disaster so you probably couldn't have done much else. I agree to may be turn down a bit but you will quickly realise the size and shape of venues pretty much dictate how you will sound, unless you have a very good PA system
We turn down gigs now if we know its in a room where the sound will be a nightmare

[essexbasscat]

Out of interest, what mics were you using ? I'm no expert, but I've heard that some mics are better at reducing feedback than others.

Examples of feedback reducing mics are renowned to be; Sennheiser e945, Electrovoice ND 967.

There's also examples of reducing boom from hollow stages by using de-coupling devices such as the Gramma Pad.

Was there a graphic equaliser that demonstrated which frequencies were feeding back ?

Just some thoughts here. I'd be more than happy for people to discuss these ideas, whichever way the discussion goes, if we all learn from the process

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='GrahamT' timestamp='1388745179' post='2325432']

I have been thinking about the cause of the issues and have come to the conclusion that the sound problems were as a result of the temporary wooden stage over a large void, booming back the sound and feeding back through the microphones. What do you think, guys? Would Gramma pads have helped tame this? I had thought of sitting my stack on some memory foam from and old mattress, or raising it up off the floor on a camping table.

[/quote]

This will certainly have been at least part of the problem, and I had exactly this issue with a mic (SM55 Elvis mic) on a round iron base when playing a raised wooden stage. Gramma pads are good for bass rigs, not so much for microphones.

As to putting a bass rig on an old mattress ... erm ... I think not!

[razze06]

All that's been said, plus cut the bass frequencies. If you can, try cutting difference frequencies while soundchecking. It will not make yourtone sound great, but at least you'll hear it, and remove the boom. Thinner sounds are less boomy!

[skychaserhigh]

Work to the strengths of the vocals.Turn everything down until the vocals are loud and clear enough without feedback otherwise it all becomes a volume war and sounds a distorted mess out front. In those type of halls sometimes the only way to make it work is to use less volume not more.

[gjones]

In places like that I recommend you get the drummer to play with canes and the rest of the band lower their volume to the reduced level of the drummer. I also make sure my bass amp is off the stage, maybe on a table or chair, and as near to ear level as possible (which stops the sound getting too boomy, as the amp isn't coupling with a hollow stage and makes it easier to hear).

Of course many drummers hate playing with canes. But just tell them the practice will do them the world of good (And if they still make a fuss just repeatedly hit them with a cricket bat until they do what they're told).

[Lozz196]

Yep, all reduce volume - get both bass and the guitars to reduce lows, get guitars to reduce reverb as well. Agree re getting amps off of the stage - those old stages are a nightmare for boominess. Also, re vox, reduce any reverbs/delays, and add mids not highs to make them more audible.

[spacey]

If your band is loud on stage and you stand close to the drummer who is doing his best to crack the cymballs, what often goes is your ears.
Things sound muddy and dull and appear to get worse as you play on.
Once you take the edge off your hearing it can take many hours to return, keep doing it and it never does.

This might sound daft, but it can be the biggest cause of why does my bass sound dull all of a sudden.

[JTUK]

Impossible to say, really, you have to be there, but you may not have been entirely to blame either.
We have found that the P.A soundman's answer to this is often to just turn up the P.A
when what you should be going for is a mix. This means you both have to concede there is a problem
and then decide on the best way to approach fixing it. It the band decides one thing and the soundman
another, what normally happens is that both parties give up at some fraught point. The soundman decides he can do nothing
positive and may attend only the most drastic noises and the band resign themselves to not hearing themselves
and just getting through it.
What makes this much much worse though, IMO, is when sounds have to be EQ'd.... as then you are fighting sound
as well as levels and most of us don't often get 2hr sound checks for band and support.
The way to help here is that you know the band has sorted its own sounds out at some point and know how it NEEDS
to sound...

The one thing that gets sacrificed usually, is the stage sound, but then your engr better be worth that..and often they aren't... IME.

The only thing I can really offer is find a sound guy you really trust and knows what he is doing and put him on the gig payroll
and also practice getting the band sound sorted in very quick time...which means that you want to be hearing everything everytime.
Gts and keys need special attention because they either have or want full range sounds............. You can't allow this and still get the bass
to sound seperated...
Basically..IMO..anytime you can't hear the bass, the band mix is shot...

[thepurpleblob]

To a certain extent you have to get used to it. Some rooms just sound terrible whatever you do. Getting a great sound is a black art. The thing I often see with new bands is the tendency towards the "turn it up race", That is when the gig degenerates into a competition to be the loudest. Get your cabs off the floor, start with EQs flat, turn it all down a bit and listen. Try to have enough time to fiddle. It's usually a good start.

BTW... drummers can play quietly, they all just say they can't. Think about it - just don't hit the bloody thing as hard ;-)

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1388775372' post='2325991']
Impossible to say, really, you have to be there, but you may not have been entirely to blame either.
We have found that the P.A soundman's answer to this is often to just turn up the P.A
when what you should be going for is a mix. This means you both have to concede there is a problem
and then decide on the best way to approach fixing it. It the band decides one thing and the soundman
another, what normally happens is that both parties give up at some fraught point. The soundman decides he can do nothing
positive and may attend only the most drastic noises and the band resign themselves to not hearing themselves
and just getting through it.
What makes this much much worse though, IMO, is when sounds have to be EQ'd.... as then you are fighting sound
as well as levels and most of us don't often get 2hr sound checks for band and support.
The way to help here is that you know the band has sorted its own sounds out at some point and know how it NEEDS
to sound...

The one thing that gets sacrificed usually, is the stage sound, but then your engr better be worth that..and often they aren't... IME.

The only thing I can really offer is find a sound guy you really trust and knows what he is doing and put him on the gig payroll
and also practice getting the band sound sorted in very quick time...which means that you want to be hearing everything everytime.
Gts and keys need special attention because they either have or want full range sounds............. You can't allow this and still get the bass
to sound seperated...
Basically..IMO..anytime you can't hear the bass, the band mix is shot...
[/quote]

Excellent post

[Spike Vincent]

Wooden stage over a storage void.I engineered regularly at a pub with a similar set up.Solution was put the bass cab on beer crates to limit the resonance caused by the chamber under the stage.

[deepbass5]

Yep with Sky chaser and Lozz Les and MR Jones, in fact lots of good advise above. When you have played every bum hall in the area you will build up a more immediate response to similar venues you find yourself at.
My key points would be:-
Most people want to hear the vocals so make sure these are good, I have put mic stands on carpet samples. Also monitors on them keep some in the van.
Turn down bass and guitar ++ drummer
Get the amps off the floor put not directly into mics
Positioning of mics and monitors and PA can save the day.

Better to sound really good to those on the floor in front the 1st 20 feet than sound sh*te everywhere

[Dad3353]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' timestamp='1388782553' post='2326108']...BTW... drummers can play quietly, they all just say they can't. Think about it - just don't hit the bloody thing as hard ;-)
[/quote]

Word.

[JTUK]

[quote name='essexbasscat' timestamp='1388748795' post='2325480']
Out of interest, what mics were you using ? I'm no expert, but I've heard that some mics are better at reducing feedback than others.

[/quote]

I tend not to want to see a lot of SM58's for vox altho they can be ok as an ambient mic around the kit...
as in you can't or don't want to really control the bleed, so these things will pick that up anyway.

But as for a controlled stage...??? err... not for me.

Having said that, they are a fine workhorse in general...so as long as you know you'll get overspill.
I like P.A's to have options here .... and you should get some idea of their work mode by the tech rider they should provide.

[GrahamT]

Great stuff here. Thanks for all of your replies so far. I'm learning lots.

BTW, I hadn't planned on sitting my combo on a mattress - just a piece of the memory foam cut off the top!!

It seems that several things were happening which combined together contributed to the overall sound problem. We occasionally use this hall for practice, although not on the stage as this is packed away into the void. With a little work we could build up the stage and try a few of your suggestions and see what the results are.

There's nothing better than a real-life problem to get the grey matter working!

G

[Roger2611]

Where to start!

Welcome to the world of live sound

A small PA in a big hall can't stop sounds bouncing off the back wall which will contribute to what ends up as a dreadful noise with the initial sound just bouncing back into mikes and feeding round again. If the Pa ain't big enough there is not a massive amount you can do about it other than give it as much room as you can, there is a formula out there somewhere that will indicate what sized pa you need for a certain sized venue and it is bigger than you would imagine!

Get your amps raised high enough that you can hear them rather than aiming them at your knees (which don't have ears!) then you won't have to be so loud, then your vocalist won't demand monitors are so loud as to just add to the cacophony of sound you are creating.

Unless your drummer is exceptionally loud he isn't going to drown out reasonable quality amps, he may sound loud where you are but probably isn't going to over power a large venue (again by getting your amps up higher you will hear them closer to you and maintain more control)

I have worked with a good number of big live acts is some fantastic small venues and some awful big venues and stage control is everything, control your volume and monitor needs on stage and any sound man worth his salts will deliver a good sound out front and at least a half decent sound back to the stage.

That said some rooms are just pigging awful

I hope it helps

[GrahamT]

Hi All, One detail I omitted to mention (sorry!) - Only the acoustic guitar and the vocals were put through the PA. All the rest of the guitars and bass were through their own amps. That's why I asked about placing my stack nearer the front of the stage and using my own monitoring. My Hartke Kickback is a goodly sized lump and I aim to save my back wherever possible, so would an old 2x10 cab work as a monitor?

[essexbasscat]

Good point earlier about raising the backline amps, always a winner that one. Also relative positioning of mics, monitors and FOH.
Were the FOH speakers directly facing any reflective surfaces ? avoiding that helps.

Were the high pass filters engaged on the desk ?

Acoustic guitar OP ? did you cut the bottom end at the desk from the acoustic ? that could cause the muddiness (and even boom) you mentioned right there

A 2x10 OP ? if it's a 2x10 bass cab, it may be biased towards low end frequencies, which may re- enforce the muddiness you speak of.

Just more food for thought

[deepbass5]

Good point from essex, despite only acoustic and vocals in the PA a loud stage volume will bleed in. I always use the 80 Hz button on the mixer to cut all mics low end. This is below vocal range so unless you are to mic the bass you do not need that low frequency rumble and mush being amplified then propogated by the room acoustics. We also only mic vocals through the PA and use back line amps for guitar and bass. only on large civic halls or Marquees do i use bass bins and then add Guitar and bass. Best to remember every room has a critical frequency and volume level that will come and bite you if you try and go there. Set up is key but someone suggest - the singer should get out there with a radio mic and tell the band what balance is required from who.