Fender (well, Squier) factory shim?- (JV Precision) UPDATE- Truss rod now out.

[Thunderbird]

This looks promising

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f18/my-truss-rod-repair-841172/"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f18/my-truss-rod-repair-841172/[/url]

[Musky]

Holy cr@p! Hopefully a new thread can be cut in the truss rod - I'm sure this is a problem that many luthiers must have come across before and have the tools for repairing rather than replacing the entire rod.

[Grangur]

[quote name='Thunderbird' timestamp='1388936936' post='2327801']
All the shop will say is that an unauthorised repair person worked on the bass and broke it which I think would be a bog standard reply I really am trying not to be negative but I just cant see the shop paying out for it and the bass is not new if it is a JV it must be about 25-30 years old anyway hopefully Will can get his luthier to fix it
[/quote]
Given the age. You're probably right.

The OP needs to keep in in perspective though, he can always buy a replacement neck. Mind you, you can pick up another Squier on Ebay these days for around 100 notes!

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1388934776' post='2327768']
In any case he needs to take it back and make it Fender's problem. He should demand a good replacement bass.

When making a bass Fender have a massive stack of necks and an equally massive supply of bodies. All should be virtually identical. I can't believe they can't find a body and neck that work well together without bodging it. If one neck doesn't work, they should change the neck. It's shockingly bad they should let a bass go out needing a shim from day 1.
[/quote] first - chill out
second - It's a 30 year old bass -
Third - I'm wasn't getting involved in a(nother) "should basses need a shim" thread - just trying to give advice to the OP. We have no idea if the bass shipped with a shim or it was added some time in the last 3 decades.
Personally I've added shims to basses and not noticed any difference in sound or feel (apart from them being set up better) so I don't care if shims are used or not. The clue to why they are made with shims is in your own post... a massive stack of necks, and a massive stack of bodies - it's mass produced in large numbers- personally I'm ok with a manufacturing tolerance the thickness of a rail ticket - and if I wasn't - why on earth are you buying a mass produced instrument anyway.

To the OP hope you get it sorted

[Grangur]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1388939368' post='2327840']
first - chill out
second - It's a 30 year old bass -
Third - I'm wasn't getting involved in a(nother) "should basses need a shim" thread - just trying to give advice to the OP. We have no idea if the bass shipped with a shim or it was added some time in the last 3 decades.
Personally I've added shims to basses and not noticed any difference in sound or feel (apart from them being set up better) so I don't care if shims are used or not. The clue to why they are made with shims is in your own post... a massive stack of necks, and a massive stack of bodies - it's mass produced in large numbers- personally I'm ok with a manufacturing tolerance the thickness of a rail ticket - and if I wasn't - why on earth are you buying a mass produced instrument anyway.

To the OP hope you get it sorted
[/quote]
Agreed. I read the OP as saying this is a new bass and the shim was straight out of the factory. If the bass is 20+ years old there's no knowing this.

To the OP: Good luck in sorting it

[dannybuoy]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1388939065' post='2327837']
Mind you, you can pick up another Squier on Ebay these days for around 100 notes!
[/quote]

This is no ordinary Squier though, JV's typically change hands for around the 700 mark!

[cameltoe]

This one won't, unless I can sort it!

I'm going to wait to see what my Luthier says, if he can't repair or replace it I thought it might be an idea- as he's local- to send a friendly email to John Elliott to see if he could replace the truss rod? Surely if anyone can, he can. Just depends if he's willing.

Otherwise I'll ask Mansons, and if they can't help, I guess its a new neck.

Edited January 5, 2014 by cameltoe

[Martin E]

Cameltoe, you've been really unlucky there, these things are highly stressed at the best of times but you tackled it in the best way you could by adjusting in small increments.
Interested to hear what a luthier recommends though as suggested a second hand neck on here may be a more cost effective alternative.

Regarding shims, as Luke FRC says they are no big deal. Remember Fender's own micro tilt system was effectively just a variable shim. However no micro tilt adjustment or shim will improve a bowed neck unfortunately.

A bad start to the new year for you, let us know how you get on.

[cameltoe]

As you can imagine i'd rather get the original neck sorted, due to the collectability of these basses.

The neck I'd like will set me back $320 from Musickraft.

Anyone got a good quality maple neck kicking around? Just in case?

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 19, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[cameltoe]

I've had a good look around google the past few days and I'm fairly convinced the stewmac truss repair kit would be the place to start with trying to fix it.

This is the kit-

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for_Truss_rods/Truss_Rod_Rescue_Kit.html

Does anybody know a UK luthier that has this kit??

[Musicman20]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1389046187' post='2329380']
I've had a good look around google the past few days and I'm fairly convinced the stewmac truss repair kit would be the place to start with trying to fix it.

This is the kit-

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for_Truss_rods/Truss_Rod_Rescue_Kit.html

Does anybody know a UK luthier that has this kit??
[/quote]

Ouch...how much ?!

I hope you get it sorted.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1388933983' post='2327756']
Of course. It's a fundamental design flaw that such things should be necessary to experience a playable action on an instrument. It perplexes me, that instruments of this apparent value are so compromised. A shim lessens the structural integrity of the neck to body join and affects the transfer of vibration (thus resonance) through the instument, fact. You might as well make a bass from plywood if bodge-jobs like shims are built into basses.
[/quote]

I wouldn't worry about the shim. My 1983 USA Jazz has a little walnut side shim which looks original and it is to correct a poorly routed neck socket, and it also has the Fender neck pitch adjuster which I have had to use to correct the pitch. The bass sounds and plays like a beast. Loads of Fenders have shims, it's an indication of poor neck routing but it's not anything to worry about.

The issue is the truss rod, take it to a good luthier.

[Dom in Dorset]

It is possible to replace a truss rod, it requires removing the board, not for the feint hearted, I've done it but I put a fretless board on , I didn't replace the original.

[cameltoe]

[quote name='Dom in Somerset' timestamp='1389082584' post='2329582']
It is possible to replace a truss rod, it requires removing the board, not for the feint hearted, I've done it but I put a fretless board on , I didn't replace the original.
[/quote]

Tis a one piece maple neck- would it be possible to remove it through the skunk stripe at the back?

[4000]

[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1389017539' post='2328799']
Oh man...

Sorry to hear that! The truss rod should be capable of holding a neck straight without snapping, even to the point of a bit of backbow, in fact. The fact it didn't make any difference with 3/4 of a turn suggests it was already damaged, and perhaps was why you were having the issue in the first place.

Anyway, I hope it can be sorted easily!
[/quote]

Of all the Fenders or Fender types I've owned, only one (an early 70s P) had a truss rod that would actually straighten the neck properly.

[Dom in Dorset]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1389116200' post='2330234']
Tis a one piece maple neck- would it be possible to remove it through the skunk stripe at the back?
[/quote]
don't know, the one I did had the truss under the fretboard. Someone on this forum did pull one out from the heal end , like this :
[color=#000000][font=verdana, arial, sans-serif][size=2]http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaster-discussion-forum/137345-lite-ash-truss-rod-replacement.html[/size][/font][/color]

[HowieBass]

cameltoe, I've just been browsing online and there's a luthier in Lewisham, London who has that truss rod repair tool - stories here about truss rod repairs [url="http://grahamparkerluthier.com/tag/truss-rod/"]http://grahamparkerl.../tag/truss-rod/[/url] and links on his site so you can make contact if you think he can sort your bass out.

Edited January 7, 2014 by HowieBass

[Dingus]

[quote name='cameltoe' timestamp='1388947559' post='2327994']
As you can imagine i'd rather get the original neck sorted, due to the collectability of these basses.

The neck I'd like will set me back $320 from Musickraft.

Anyone got a good quality maple neck kicking around? Just in case?
[/quote]


I'm very sorry to hear about this mishap, and rest assured, this bass is fixable, the only question is how much it will cost and if it is worth doing in light of that expense . It may be that a replacement neck may lessen the collectability of the bass dramatically, but makes the most sense in terms of cutting you losses and giving you a great bass - maybe even a better bass- to play and use.

[cameltoe]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1389117198' post='2330256']
cameltoe, I've just been browsing online and there's a luthier in Lewisham, London who has that truss rod repair tool - stories here about truss rod repairs [url="http://grahamparkerluthier.com/tag/truss-rod/"]http://grahamparkerl.../tag/truss-rod/[/url] and links on his site so you can make contact if you think he can sort your bass out.
[/quote]

That's awesome, thanks- I will give him a shout.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1389119395' post='2330291']
I'm very sorry to hear about this mishap, and rest assured, this bass is fixable, the only question is how much it will cost and if it is worth doing in light of that expense . It may be that a replacement neck may lessen the collectability of the bass dramatically, but makes the most sense in terms of cutting you losses and giving you a great bass - maybe even a better bass- to play and use.
[/quote]

Yes that's gone through my mind a lot- I'm going to pursue repair for a while until I have a rock-solid diagnosis and price and will then have to make a decision accordingly.

i'm going to start a thread on the repair section, as I've been googling a lot regarding the construction of these early truss rods, and from what I can tell, the truss rod would have been inserted at the headstock end, with the truss anchor held in place under the walnut plug. If the truss can be removed from here and a new one inserted, it would be the best outcome I could hope for.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1388933983' post='2327756']
A shim lessens the structural integrity of the neck to body join and affects the transfer of vibration (thus resonance) through the instument, fact. You might as well make a bass from plywood if bodge-jobs like shims are built into basses.
[/quote]

I can see the logic of that thinking, about transmission of vibrations etc. However, in practice... how much a shim compromises this?
I have used shims, and one of my basses has a micro-tilt mechanism to achieve what a shim achieves... and have I ever felt the basses were inferior in any way? Not at all. When I installed a shim, the only difference has been that I was able to improve the playability of an instrument without hurting its sound whatsoever...

Shims allow to adjust the neck/body angle subtly but significantly. Mass production basses are not all identical, some neck pockets/necks fit better than others... it's the way they're made. Elegant? Perhaps not much. But it works and I doubt anybody would be able to tell whether a bass has a shim without dismantling it. I know I could not.

[Fionn]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1389152836' post='2330703']
I can see the logic of that thinking, about transmission of vibrations etc. However, in practice... how much a shim compromises this?
I have used shims, and one of my basses has a micro-tilt mechanism to achieve what a shim achieves... and have I ever felt the basses were inferior in any way? Not at all. When I installed a shim, the only difference has been that I was able to improve the playability of an instrument without hurting its sound whatsoever...

Shims allow to adjust the neck/body angle subtly but significantly. Mass production basses are not all identical, some neck pockets/necks fit better than others... it's the way they're made. Elegant? Perhaps not much. But it works and I doubt anybody would be able to tell whether a bass has a shim without dismantling it. I know I could not.
[/quote]

Maybe so, but that's not a thing which is well made. Is it unreasonable to expect that an instrument which costs several hundred pounds should have an accurately constructed neck joint? In this example of mass-production, is it unreasonable to expect that the manufacturer should take the time to match necks to the bodies of these expensive products? In my professional opinion (I'm a silversmith), anything less is plain sloppiness/ complacency on the part of the manufacturer. The joiner who fitted my kitchen would get that join right, so a company which has made millions of guitars should be able to do the same, it's not rocket science.

Opinions will differ. I've heard it said that the charm of Fenders is in their apparent "imperfections". That is maybe so, but It makes a mockery of those folk who bang on about the tonal difference between a rosewood and maple fretboard, etc. Such fine nuances, translated through a shim .... really???

[Paul S]

[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1389172164' post='2330767']
it's not rocket science.
[/quote]

Pocket science?

[Fionn]

[quote name='Paul S' timestamp='1389172353' post='2330772']
Pocket science?
[/quote]

hahaha! brilliant.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1389172164' post='2330767']
Maybe so, but that's not a thing which is well made. Is it unreasonable to expect that an instrument which costs several hundred pounds should have an accurately constructed neck joint? In this example of mass-production, is it unreasonable to expect that the manufacturer should take the time to match necks to the bodies of these expensive products? In my professional opinion (I'm a silversmith), anything less is plain sloppiness/ complacency on the part of the manufacturer. The joiner who fitted my kitchen would get that join right, so a company which has made millions of guitars should be able to do the same, it's not rocket science.

Opinions will differ. I've heard it said that the charm of Fenders is in their apparent "imperfections". That is maybe so, but It makes a mockery of those folk who bang on about the tonal difference between a rosewood and maple fretboard, etc. Such fine nuances, translated through a shim .... really???
[/quote]


Perhaps it's customers who have been complacent, and Fender (for example, although they're not the only ones using shims) thought "hey, we can use shims at assembly, and save us a lot of time and effort -and money-, and people don't complain: we're onto a winner here!".

I'm with you regarding how "sloppy" relying on shims seems, at first glance, as a construction method. However, I don't have any evidence that it's detrimental to the sound, and nobody seems to know they have a shim in their neck pockets until they remove the neck -which most people never ever do. So my feeling is that we're worrying about nothing. Give me a bass that sounds good, feels solid and is set up nicely... and I don't really care whether there's a very thin shim in the neck pocket or not.
As long as people buy the instruments and are happy with them and the price, the company will not feel a need to change practices.

I don't think it's fair to compare the neck pocket fit with the work of your joiner. Your joiner is working to much larger tolerances that you will not notice by eye. What a shim achieves is a very tiny tiny angle tilt. We're talking about a thin strip of card that is only just a fraction of a millimetre.