The biggest secret in the music industry

[Skol303]

You may need to bear with this video… it runs as a zillion miles per hour and I doubt it's a style (or haircut) that everyone will enjoy… but I found it to be a very interesting insight into the pop industry.

And besides, I like Dave (it's creator). Nice guy who shares a lot of good advice about music production. But that's by the by.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2DHuugaxWk

[SteveK]

I don't know who this 'Boy in a Band' Dave is... but it would seem that he's been living under a rock, and only just found out that *shock horror* singers and bands don't always write their own material . As Dave says, "He doesn't give many interviews"! So, I guess Max Martin prefers anonymity. Not sure how this is "The biggest secret in the music industry". There are many more such songwriters.

[Skol303]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1389229775' post='2331782']
I don't know who this 'Boy in a Band' Dave is... but it would seem that he's been living under a rock, and only just found out that *shock horror* singers and bands don't always write their own material . As Dave says, "He doesn't give many interviews"! So, I guess Max Martin prefers anonymity. Not sure how this is "The biggest secret in the music industry". There are many more such songwriters.
[/quote]

Had you heard of Max Martin before watching the video? I hadn't. And I'm a sucker for a good pop song.

I think the point he's trying to make is that here's someone who's written countless number ones and top tens singles. Not just [i]some[/i] number ones... but sixteen of them. And yet nobody has heard of him. Which exemplifies how the music industry works.

Of course that's old news that we already knew… but the Max Martin story puts into perspective just how much image trumps creativity in the world of pop.

It's certainly not the "biggest secret in the music industry" - I don't think the title is meant to be taken literally; it's intended to make you watch the video. But I thought it was interesting

[SlapbassSteve]

Very interesting video! The idea of someone writing material for the artists is nothing new of course, we've all heard of the Brill Building in New York, but he's right that more people should be aware of the writers behind the hits.

Begs the question whether some of the hits would have been as successful if performed by other artists- what if Britney had been assigned I Kissed A Girl, instead of Katy Perry? If I were to ask this man for one of his unreleased songs, but together a crack squad of unheard of session musicians and record it, would we reach number one? I doubt it... the music business is, and always has been mostly a marketing exercise.

[gjones]

Give the guy credit but I'm not a big fan of Britney Spears or Pink. It's not just the quality of a song that get's it to No1, it's the millions spent on the marketing campaign and the massive hype as well. The best doesn't always get to the top. I think Simon Cowell would agree.

[SteveK]

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1389231067' post='2331789']
And yet nobody has heard of him. [b]Which exemplifies how the music industry works.[/b]
[/quote]
And why is that wrong? Max Martin is [b]far[/b] from unusual. If you look into many of the high profile big selling artists, I'm sure that you'll see some of the same names cropping up, and if you ask them, I'm also sure that a lot one them will say that they're quite happy to be in the background, working in the studio and waiting for the cheques to roll in. As I said, Dave says that "Max Martin doesn't give interviews", so I conclude from that that he [b]chooses[/b] to remain anonymous.

EDIT: And no, I hadn't heard of him.

Edited January 9, 2014 by SteveK

[Merton]

I've heard of Max Martin and I've also heard that all the Motown artists had their songs written for them too

Edited January 9, 2014 by Merton

[XB26354]

How about Diane Warren? Hasn't she written dozens of US No. 1s but is virtually unknown by the great unwashed? I'd never heard if her until I saw an article in Sound on Sound.
It isn't anything new - it's a part of the music industry and always has been (Did Sinatra write all his own material?)

Edited January 9, 2014 by XB26354

[madshadows]

Interesting and fun video, I had never heard of MM either, just goes to show you can stay under the radar and be a success if you want to go that route !

[Jonnyboy Rotten]

I heard that Bruno Mars made his name 'backstage' by writing material for loads of [s]other artists[/s] pop singers.

Eventually he thought he might as well get the money for writing AND performing together with the fact that I imagine his boyish good looks don't do him any harm at all!

Edited January 9, 2014 by Jonnyboy Rotten

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 19, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Bilbo]

Can't watch the video here but it has often struck me as peculiar that the songwriter gets so much in the way of royalties compared to other 'stakeholders' in the process. There are some great songs that have become massive hits but, without the arranger, producer, musicians, performer, even the video director etc the 'song' can a bit something and nothing. I head some old Hoagy Carmichael tunes once, performed as he intended, and they were pretty crap really; the band was weak, the performances lame etc. And yet, years of re-arrangements through hundreds of fresh ears, voices, instrumentalists and they are classics. I get that the 'idea' is the important part but, actually, is it the [i]only[/i] important part?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1389264593' post='2331989']
Can't watch the video here but it has often struck me as peculiar that the songwriter gets so much in the way of royalties compared to other 'stakeholders' in the process. There are some great songs that have become massive hits but, without the arranger, producer, musicians, performer, even the video director etc the 'song' can a bit something and nothing. I head some old Hoagy Carmichael tunes once, performed as he intended, and they were pretty crap really; the band was weak, the performances lame etc. And yet, years of re-arrangements through hundreds of fresh ears, voices, instrumentalists and they are classics. I get that the 'idea' is the important part but, actually, is it the [i]only[/i] important part?
[/quote]
An interesting view.
I know a few people who have been involved in major selling bands and ultimately ended up with very little beyond wages... Stings a bit.

[Bilbo]

I get that the song is the thing but there are so many examples of songs that are dead in the water until some producer, arranger whatever breaths new life into it. The catalyst gets very little, the writer of the song gets everything. Doesn't seem fair.

[SteveK]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1389264593' post='2331989']
I get that the 'idea' is the important part but, actually, is it the [i]only[/i] important part?
[/quote]
It's not the [i]only[/i] important part, but it is (usually) the [i]most[/i] important part. Without the song there's nothing for anybody to work on.
Fact is, as in any industry, if a producer, arranger, musician etc is considered to be important to a record's success, then that producer, arranger, musician etc is in a very strong position to name his price.
[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1389265109' post='2331997']
An interesting view.
I know a few people who have been involved in major selling bands and ultimately ended up with very little beyond wages... Stings a bit.
[/quote]
Tell me about it! Although, I think record companies, managers and the like stitching up their artists is a whole different subject.

[BigRedX]

Everything in this thread gives all the more reasons to work on your songwriting skills. (unless you are strictly a hobbyist playing covers).

[flyfisher]

Interesting video, but I wouldn't say it's a particularly 'interesting insight into the music industry'. There are loads of fairly anonymous people turning the wheels of the music industry. In fact, why [u]would[/u] most people know about anything but the end-product?

Imagine interviewing people in the street and asking them if they've heard of Carole Kaye, Pino, Jamerson or any number of other people whose work they would know but have never heard of the person concerned.

Come to think of it, how many people have heard of Jonathan Ive? Tim Berners-Lee? William Shockley? Carl Djerassi? . . . .

[BetaFunk]

Goffin & King, Bacharach & David, Mann & Weill, Jimmy Webb and Barry Mason, Les Reed, Tony Macaulay in the UK wrote hit after hit after hit. None of these were household names while they were having those hits. The average punter didn't take much notice of who wrote the songs in the 50s and 60s. It was only some years later that they got the recognition for those songs.

One interesting point is that because when they played a record on the radio in Brazil they had to by law name the composer songwriters became household names in that country.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1389263744' post='2331974']
Ever heard of 'The Wrecking Crew'? Most of the classic American pop music from the 50's to the mid 70's was even recorded by the same couple of hundred players, let alone the writing.
[/quote]
That's a good point. The Wrecking Crew played on those hits made on the West Coast and Chuck Rainey, Bernard Purdie, Richard Tee, Eric Gale etc played on most of the East Coast ones.

[SteveK]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1389266214' post='2332018']
I get that the song is the thing but there are so many examples of songs that are dead in the water until some producer, arranger whatever breaths new life into it. The catalyst gets very little, the writer of the song gets everything. Doesn't seem fair.
[/quote]But that's not true!
Just one example (prompted by the revived thread), but by no means unusual: The Frankies "Two Tribes". It could (to my mind) have been "dead in the water" without the wizadry of Trevor Horn. Of course, I don't know what deal was done, but I'd bet my garden shed that, in terms of royalties, he did just as well (if not better) than the individual band members.
IME successful producers, arrangers etc, have a very good idea of their worth.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1389271238' post='2332118']
But that's not true!
Just one example (prompted by the revived thread), but by no means unusual: The Frankies "Two Tribes". It could (to my mind) have been "dead in the water" without the wizadry of Trevor Horn. Of course, I don't know what deal was done, but I'd bet my garden shed that, in terms of royalties, he did just as well (if not better) than the individual band members.
IME successful producers, arrangers etc, have a very good idea of their worth.
[/quote]
I agree with that. I was really surprised when i was speaking to someone i know in the music industry (he's actually a neighbour) once that producers and even engineers often negotiate a percentage of royalties.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1389271238' post='2332118']
But that's not true!
Just one example (prompted by the revived thread), but by no means unusual: The Frankies "Two Tribes". It could (to my mind) have been "dead in the water" without the wizadry of Trevor Horn. Of course, I don't know what deal was done, but I'd bet my garden shed that, in terms of royalties, he did just as well (if not better) than the individual band members.
IME successful producers, arrangers etc, have a very good idea of their worth.
[/quote]

Since Trevor Horn owned the record label ZTT (along with his wife and Paul Morley) I'm sure he did very nicely out of the Frankie stuff before his producer's fees and/or royalties were even considered.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1389271238' post='2332118']
But that's not true!
Just one example (prompted by the revived thread), but by no means unusual: The Frankies "Two Tribes". It could (to my mind) have been "dead in the water" without the wizadry of Trevor Horn. Of course, I don't know what deal was done, but I'd bet my garden shed that, in terms of royalties, he did just as well (if not better) than the individual band members.
IME successful producers, arrangers etc, have a very good idea of their worth.
[/quote]

But isn't the point that in order to get that share of the royalties they have to get themselves named as co-[i]writers[/i], not just producers, arrangers etc?

[SteveK]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1389278310' post='2332258']
But isn't the point that in order to get that share of the royalties they have to get themselves named as co-[i]writers[/i], not just producers, arrangers etc?
[/quote]
No!
Of course, a producer [i]can[/i] claim a writing credit and receive the fee/points that are negotiated.
But a producer can also negotiate points solely as a producer.
When you're of the calibre of Rick Rubin, Quincy Jones, Dr Dre, Butch Vig etc then you can negotiate for points, a hefty one-off fee, or even maybe a lifetime's supply of Mars bars.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1389281150' post='2332309']
No!
Of course, a producer [i]can[/i] claim a writing credit and receive the fee/points that are negotiated.
But a producer can also negotiate points solely as a producer.
[/quote]

I was referring to PRS type royalties - you have to be a writer or publisher to get those.