Subthumper Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Hi all, I was trawling the net and came across these speakers designed in the 50's. They have a front cavity and a tapered slot. I've seen pics of Stanley Clark using them in a rig by acoustic, looks like it was the seventies. Anyone got any knowledge on these? If they were as good as claimed how come you never hear of them? I'm suspecting it's down to cost of build like most superior designs plus some pooh pooing from those who are locked into conventional ideas. I'll see if I can put up a link once I've worked out how to on this new tablet I got. Be interested to hear of anyone's experience of these. Cheers Just Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 [quote name='Subthumper' timestamp='1389350613' post='2333079'] If they were as good as claimed how come you never hear of them? [/quote]That answers your question right there. BTW, the inventor himself didn't know what they were. He called them horns, they were not. They're 6th order series tuned bandpass enclosures: http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxes6.asp Thye differ from the picture shown in the link only by the shape of the port on the cabinet front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBod Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I had PM from someone in the States who said he used some of these in the 70's. This was prompted by a photo of Stanley Clarke's speaker sphere thing…I'll go find the message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subthumper Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 So does this mean they're no good for bass guitar? From what I've read they were used for hifi, pa and studio monitors and apparently were pretty efficient. It's just that I'm on the charge to build a cab and wanted something weird and different to conflict all those boring square boxes that all.look alike and sound average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBod Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 [attachment=152036:stanleykzy8.jpg] This is the crazy looking system Stanley Clarke had some time in the late 70's. I'm guessing Alembic preamps, PA power amps and wacky cabs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 [quote name='Subthumper' timestamp='1389374711' post='2333585'] So does this mean they're no good for bass guitar? From what I've read they were used for hifi, pa and studio monitors and apparently were pretty efficient. It's just that I'm on the charge to build a cab and wanted something weird and different to conflict all those boring square boxes that all.look alike and sound average. [/quote]You had it right in your first post: [i]If they were as good as claimed how come you never hear of them? [/i] The design dates to 1954, twenty odd years before the use of T/S specs to design speakers became widespread. It was, as all cabs were in 1954, an empirical 'seat of the pants' design. It faded into obscurity for good reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subthumper Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 Thanks Bill for your input. I was under the impression that it was it bit more mathematical than seat of the pants. I shall pursue another avenue. Shame though cos it looks wicked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 [quote name='Subthumper' timestamp='1389392742' post='2333912'] Thanks Bill for your input. I was under the impression that it was it bit more mathematical than seat of the pants. I shall pursue another avenue. Shame though cos it looks wicked. [/quote]If you investigate John Karlsons background and look at the claims he made for these it becomes apparent that he really had no clue. Dr. Floyd Toole of Harman said, "The 'Karlson' ... could best be described as an 'acoustic meat grinder', ...guaranteed to make mincemeat from any drivers put into it!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subthumper Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 That saved a lot of time, hard work and disappointment. Will have to look elsewhere for inspiration in search for something different. Thanks again Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddyi Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) try #2 - - I attempted to post the pictures rather than link but it did not work and resulted in loss of the links - this is my first posting so please bear with this mess. [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]listen to someone who knows more first-hand - me - (Fred Ireson[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=4]John Karlson and the late Wayne Green finished the prototype in the summer of 1951. [/size][/font][/color] The 15 inch ("K15") Karlson enclosure made its debut at the big fall 1952 HIFHi show at the Hotel New Yorker - many famous names attended with their products (Brociner, Fisher, Klipsch...). At this same time appeared this Audio Engineering Magazine ariticle: KARLSON, J E, '[b]A New Approach In Loudspeaker Enclosures[/b]', Audio Engineering, ' September (1952 the article showed two equivalent circuit models so despite some response claims, Mr, Karlson understood the nature of his invention. [url="http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8131/kmodelev9.gif"]http://img213.images...1/kmodelev9.gif[/url] The original Karlson enclosure was intended for use with the finest coaxial speakers of its day.. Unlike what one generally thinks of a bandpass enclosure, there's no defined high frequency rolloff beyond that of a direct radiator. The 15" Karlson enclosure supplied sound for the 1964-1965 New York World's Fair for Ford/Disney, GE and other exhibits. I believe they were probably loaded with Electro-Voice 15TRX coaxial. The 15" Karlson enclosure measures cleaner than some horns and exhibits typically a 10dB reduction on two tone modulation testing vs bass reflex. (my outdoors test) : Eminence Beta 15cx swapped between the Karlson and a bass reflex the size of the Karlson's rear chamber. Both cabinets had similar "apparent" tuning with Z- minimum ~50Hz. (the Karlson shows a near-cone excursion null around 37Hz. Cone excursion on the Karlson is lower than that of the reflex. [url="http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/7707/dop151wm4.jpg"]http://img474.images...7/dop151wm4.jpg[/url] After Mr. Karlson's death in Jan . 1973, his widow appeared to have issued multiple licenses - the products coming out of these were the smaller couplers from Transylvania Power Company, KK-Audio, Acoustic Control and others. It was said by one maker that JBL had purchased the rights and threatened to sue if production was not ceased. I think these couplers stemmed from Karlson's 1965 "X15" cabinet which was 28 inches tall by ~20" wide by 14" deep. Acoustic Control made nice versions under models 115BK and BC2, with the latter an integrated combo amplifier. Here's my Acoustic Control 115BK and one of my metalnecks [url="http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7111/2bkxs7.jpg"]http://img341.images...7111/2bkxs7.jpg[/url] The Karlson enclosure is quite ingenious and useful (within certain size and cutoff ranges). With standard tuning they do not go "deep" but are clean in below their passband. Its not easily properly simulated and requires ~300 lines of script in akabak for K15 type. The tapered aperture does enhance a certain range with smoother dispersion than a direct radiator. Cone motion is reduced vs similar tuned reflex. Tuning of K15 was quite good showing that Karlson knew how to produce a useful coupled cavity design with a 2:1 chamber volume ratio in 1951. It remained unchanged at his death in 1973. Here's my Yorkville UCS1 horn subwoofer purchased new by me vs a simple one-sheet of plywood Karlson cabinet loaded with an inexpensive Eminence 18" (qts ~0.25, fs ~30) the horn exhibited 20dB more second harmonic than the Karlson type [url="http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8623/ucs1vsk1820v50yg5.jpg"]http://img80.imagesh...k1820v50yg5.jpg[/url] [size=4]The original Karlson enclosure were used for monitors at Owen Bradley's studio producing hits by Johnny Cash, Patsy Cline and others.[/size] [url="http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/2566/spaker1.jpg"]http://img199.images...566/spaker1.jpg[/url] There was a financial loss around 1956 which seemed to setback the company for years. It was said by the late Wayne Green who died Sept. 2013 that Karlson overpaid himself, and made other business errors. Metro Audio is one company who currently produces a Karlson-coupler under their model "T15" subwoofer. Faerber Acoustics makes a horn system using a K-tube waveguide. Below is a patent list - i could include a long invention list dated 1950 but this is already a long post. KARLSON PATENTS: J.E. Karlson US 2586827 “Directive Radiating System” Filed March 31 1945 (parabolic dish antenna) J.E. Karlson “Acoustic Transducers” US 2816619 filed Dec. 1951, granted 6 years later - deals with broadbanding slot both in loudspeakers and musical instruments. J.E Karlson “Acoustic System” US 2896736 filed Aug. 1955 - use of a modified Karlson laying on its back using either corner or wall to create a diffused sound image - HiFi Lit’s website shows a K12 used in this fashion (laid on back) on the 1955 Karlson brochure page - this patent was referenced by Bose. J.E. Karlson “Open End Waveguide Antenna” US 3445852 filed 1968 - essentially analogous with the K-tube waveguide used in Karlson’s X15 2-way speaker ~1965 and the Transylvania Power Company Karlson-waveguide "The Tube". J.E. Karlson “Acoustic Transducers” - US 3540544 filed 1968 - concurrent with X15 and described Karlson’s use of ellipse based reflectors to improve the Ultra-Fidlety type via Fig.6 and Fig 8’s reflectors (Fig6 upper reflector was used in the X15) and introduced the Asymmetric [url="http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vintage&m=39272#"]Projector[/url] with tapered elipse profile which appeared commercially as the AP-9C ceiling speaker. Karlson and his friend Jess Oliver both produced Karlson's "clam" projectors. J.E. Karlson “Jet Engine Silencer Nozzle...) US 3543876 filed 1968 - jet engine muffler and rocket nozzles. Edited January 11, 2014 by freddyi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subthumper Posted January 12, 2014 Author Share Posted January 12, 2014 I kinda knew this would be opening a can of contradictory worms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Freddy is well known as a fan of the Karlson, the only one that I'm aware of. You have to be a real fanatic to do daily searches of the word 'karlson', then join a forum for the sole purpose of championing your cause. Not that I have a problem with that, everyone has to have something to believe in. I believe I'll have another drink. Edited January 12, 2014 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiMarco Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 In the nineties I often visited a great coverband with lads from Liverpool, their bassplayer was using a Karlson cab with 15" speaker with an old Ibanez Musician bass. His tone was stellar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 People keep rediscovering this design. The Hughes and Kettner/ HK Audio empire was built on the Karlson cab. It was the very first product they made - and they did quite well with it. They called it the X-1 or something. Not a lot of people know that..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 [quote name='DiMarco' timestamp='1389545831' post='2335321'] In the nineties I often visited a great coverband with lads from Liverpool, their bassplayer was using a Karlson cab with 15" speaker with an old Ibanez Musician bass. His tone was stellar. [/quote]That's not out of the question, Stanley would not have used them if they sounded bad. Compared to the average bass cabs of the 60s and 70s they were pretty good. But I wouldn't play through any of them today. And neither does Stanley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 odd thing that however good or not a system it is by patenting it it mean it falls into obscurity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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