DPA 4099b mic on double bass - problems. Seeking advice

[jbn4001]

Hi there,
I have had a dpa4099b for about 4 months. I've not gigged in a while so haven't used it that much. I also have a Headway EDB2 pre amp to go with the mic.

I recorded a demo in a jazz quartet at the weekend (drums, double bass, trumpet, guitar). We recorded live in one room , albeit in to 8 mics and channels (1 ambient room mic, 4 mics on drums, bass, guitar, trumpet). We were set fairly well apart as the room was large. I was partitioned off with half height boards and bits of padding.

The problem: A lot of "bleed" or "spill" of all the other instruments in to the dpa mic. So the bass sounds fantastic on the recording, but the cymbals and the trumpet in particular bleed in to the mic which results in too much ambience in the recording - it sounds like the trumpet is playing far away in a bathroom!

Short of playing alone in an isolated room, how can I avoid this excessive bleed? I'd like to use the mic at gigs as well as recording, but am now unsure how viable that is given the above experience.

[henrywillard]

I have heard other bassists who have had success with the DPA live, however I have probably heard slightly more unsuccessful stories, and unfortunately my experience falls into the latter category.
I got shot of my DPA 4099 within 6 months of purchase, as it was just completely impractical for my live work.
Far too much bleed/spill of all the other instruments, and huge problems with feedback in venues of all shapes and sizes through various desks and amps. It didn't take long for me to lose all confidence in the DPA, and I couldn't get rid of it quick enough.

On it's own, it replicated the sound of my bass beautifully, like nothing else I have ever tried. However, I, like most other bassists like to play with other musicians, and this for me personally is where the DPA fell down. I could not believe how unmanageable it was. I would never go back.

As mentioned earlier however, I have heard many mixed reviews, and some bassists have achieved success with the 4099 live, whilst others have experienced similar results to me.
Hopefully some further replies to this thread may include some tips or advice for getting the best out of the DPA. Good luck!

[benbastin]

I use have been using the 4099 for about 3 years now, and I love it a lot.

You will always get spill using a condensor mic on stage but they are ways to mitigate this.

Firstly with regard to playing live. I always put my monitor to my right side putting me in between the mic and the monitor. I never use the DPA through the monitor. It is primarily for front of house, although I do use it through my amp at lower levels. Also the closer to the sound board you place the mic the better rejection it has, and the XLR adaptor has a built in low cut to accommodate the increased bass response of the mic being close.

With recording, placing the mic close the the sound board will help. Thought full placing of the musicians will help also. Have the trumpet player closer to you thus not reducing spill, but reducing the distance and effective reverb resulting from that distance. Also build a small baffle around the bass, giving you the best chance of getting clear bass sound.

I record a lot of bands in my studio live and in the room, and spill is part of the game. The DPA is actually, when use correctly, one of the better mics for rejection.

Keep playing around with it, and it will pay dividends.

[Beedster]

[quote name='jbn4001' timestamp='1389821878' post='2338397']
Hi there,
I have had a dpa4099b for about 4 months. I've not gigged in a while so haven't used it that much. I also have a Headway EDB2 pre amp to go with the mic.

I recorded a demo in a jazz quartet at the weekend (drums, double bass, trumpet, guitar). We recorded live in one room , albeit in to 8 mics and channels (1 ambient room mic, 4 mics on drums, bass, guitar, trumpet). We were set fairly well apart as the room was large. I was partitioned off with half height boards and bits of padding.

The problem: A lot of "bleed" or "spill" of all the other instruments in to the dpa mic. So the bass sounds fantastic on the recording, but the cymbals and the trumpet in particular bleed in to the mic which results in too much ambience in the recording - it sounds like the trumpet is playing far away in a bathroom!

Short of playing alone in an isolated room, how can I avoid this excessive bleed? I'd like to use the mic at gigs as well as recording, but am now unsure how viable that is given the above experience.
[/quote]

That's surely applicable to all mics and DB, not just the DPA4099? You can use the bleed well in the recording, but only if the mic in question responds well to the other instruments (especially cymbals). I've also always assumed the DPA was more for live work and is designed to reject other instruments to a point. Unless you go to ridiculous lengths you'll always get some bleed, there are probably far better mics than the 4099 for recording DB with which the bleed might work better.

[51m0n]

Bleed is always there, in every mic, given the same polar pattern, condensor vs dynamic vs ribbon is irrelevant on bleed, omni, cardioid, hyper-cardioid, figure of eight is what counts.

The DPA4099b is a supre-cardioid mic, which is tighter than most live mics (ie an sm58), its polar patten across frequencies is like this (courttesy of the DPA site):-




You have to study this diagram a bit, its giving a lot of info about what frequencies are loud where.

With careful mic position you can try and ensure as much as possible that the direct line from other loud sources hits the mic in its quietest areas.

However you state that you were cordoned off with some gobbos and yet the worst spill was from high frequency instruments (trumpet and cymbals) - which the gobos should certainly soak up if they are in the right place. And that this signal was very distant. To me that really suggests that the signal from these instruments was hitting your mic after bouncing off a room boundary or two.

In other words the room was too 'live' to get a controlled recording of the bass (with any microphone that can pick up frequencies over 1KHz, that is all of them) without too much room spill into the mic (note not direct spill since your gobos probably dealt with the worst of that) without more careful gobo, mic and player placement within the room.

Most telling for me is that you say the cymbals and trumpet sound like they are miles away. You could attempt to roll off the top end eq in the mix on your bass mic, but its probably going to make you upset about some aspect of the bass sound (transient and string noises mainly I would think).

The real solution is to acoustically treat the room (more/better), more diffusion and absorption would help tame that reverb, how big is the room?? Has it been treated? By whom (ie an expert or not).

[51m0n]

ANother thought, are you compressing the bass in the mix?

Compression will bring up the quieter aspects of the sound (ie the spill).

Its possible to use an expander to combat spill if its very carefully set up to some degree at least.

Of course the best remedy is to have good spill, then it not only doesnt matter, it can make a recording far more awesome than not having any...

I would recommend studying this short series of videos from George MAssenburg on micing up a band in a single room, he's a bona fide legend and this may give you some ideas:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZOVZQgXl9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZQwlZgV6pI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLMjesvL9uE

[jbn4001]

Hi to all in this thread. Somewhat late response - apologies for that. Just wanted to say thanks all for your detailed responses. Very helpful advice that I can keep in mind for next time I record with a group.