Is the amp or the cab most important when you want a good sound?

[gjones]

A venue where I gig regularly has the bass amp going through a really nice Ampeg Classic Series SVT 410he. They started off pairing it with an Ampeg PF- 500, which broke, the replacement was an Ashdown Mag 300 which also broke, and now they've hired an ancient Peavey firebass 700 with a broken input (you have to use the effects return thereby bypassing the preamp completely).

The amazing thing is, whatever amp they use, the sound out of that cab is always great! The 410he cabs are not cheap.They typically sell for around £700. Which leads me to the conclusion that you're much better off spending your cash on the best cab you can afford and economising on the amplifier rather than the other way around. I wonder if there's any other Basschattters out there who have had a similar experience of playing a cheap and cheerful amp through a high end cab and getting a great sound?

[LiamPodmore]

A brilliant amp through a rubbish cab will sound rubbish. A rubbish amp through a brilliant cab, you can usually get a decent enough sounding noise out of. That's my experience anyway.

Liam

[xgsjx]

It's a mix of both. If either sound rubbish, then there's no way of making that part sound better. So a lame amp through a good cab will still sound lame, just not as lame as it would be through a crap cab.

[flyfisher]

I remember this sort of debate in Hifi magazines regarding which item in an audio chain was most important and should therefore be where most of the money should be spent. I seem to recall in the 70s that it was all about 'the source' so people were encouraged to spend as much as they could on the turntable and stylus but it later seemed to change to become the speakers! But Hifi is all about 'perfect' reproduction whereas an instrument amp is all about 'tone', which makes a bit of a nonsense about 'rules' because the only thing that matters is the end result.

Probable the most important thing is for the amp and cab to be 'well matched', though that could be interpreted in a number of ways.

[Dave_the_bass]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1390037799' post='2340690']
A venue where I gig regularly has the bass amp going through a really nice Ampeg Classic Series SVT 410he. They started off pairing it with an Ampeg PF- 500, which broke, the replacement was an Ashdown Mag 300 which also broke, and now they've hired an ancient Peavey firebass 700 with a broken input (you have to use the effects return thereby bypassing the preamp completely).

The amazing thing is, whatever amp they use, the sound out of that cab is always great! The 410he cabs are not cheap.They typically sell for around £700. Which leads me to the conclusion that you're much better off spending your cash on the best cab you can afford and economising on the amplifier rather than the other way around. I wonder if there's any other Basschattters out there who have had a similar experience of playing a cheap and cheerful amp through a high end cab and getting a great sound?
[/quote]

Surely the most important part of the chain is the bass. If that sounds good then the amp just needs to increase the signal and the cab just needs to be able to convert the electrical signal in to air movement.

My basses, though budget brands/models, are capable of producing the tone that I want through my amp with a flat eq. This means; when I'm using someone else's rig I only have to tweak the eq to find a good representation of my tone as some rigs have different eqs when "flat".

The problem with someone's preferred tone tends to appear when they like a sound with wildly boosted bass and/or treble. The rig they own has probably been bought because it's capable of producing that sound cleanly, where as the rig they're borrowing possibly can't.

That being said, in my opinion; a budget head through a good cab always stands a better chance of sounding good than a high end head that's being strangled by a budget cab.

[chris_b]

For Hifi they used to advise spending 50% of your budget on the speakers.

As Liam says a bad cab won't make anything sound good.

I'd take your own amp to this gig.

[gjones]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1390045370' post='2340797']
For Hifi they used to advise spending 50% of your budget on the speakers.

As Liam says a bad cab won't make anything sound good.

I'd take your own amp to this gig.
[/quote]

I will next time

[JTUK]

yep...why do you trust this pile of poo, if you never know what state or what kit is even going to be there...?
I always ask... and tbh... my kit will trump theirs 99% of the time.

For me, its the bass.... without that, you have no chance and you'll be forever at the EQ stage of the amp...

I'd invest evenly in all 3 stages myself. A poor cab is going to ruin everything but as long as the signal going into the amp is good, you don't need to twiddle much, IMO.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1390037799' post='2340690']
Which leads me to the conclusion that you're much better off spending your cash on the best cab you can afford and economising on the amplifier rather than the other way around.
[/quote]

There are a lot of options for getting a "good enough" amp for very little money e.g a cheap preamp or pedal driving a budget PA amp or a second hand old school amp like a trace or peavey.

I would keep an eye on the efficiency of the cab though as some high end cab designs sacrifice some efficiency to achieve extra low end extension and/or small size and so would need to be paired with a decently powerful amp, having said that your not likely to have that problem with any 4x10 or 2x12.

Edited January 18, 2014 by bassman7755

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Dave_the_bass' timestamp='1390045108' post='2340793']
the cab just needs to be able to convert the electrical signal in to air movement.
[/quote]

Converting a large amount of electrical energy back to sound in a cost effective way is IMO by far the most difficult engineering problem to solve in the signal chain.

Edited January 18, 2014 by bassman7755

[Roland Rock]

Why would anyone hire a Peavey Firebass 700, can't you pick them up for less than £150?

[chris_b]

.... and if it's hired, and broken, why wasn't it replaced?

[LukeFRC]

it depends what you're going for tonally.

If you want the sound of a sealed cab, well you need a sealed cab.
If you want valve power section... well you're going to need to have a valve power section.
if you want hi-fi like full range reproduction, well a power amp into a full range speaker would be where you put your money. So it all depends!

[mcnach]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1390037799' post='2340690']
A venue where I gig regularly has the bass amp going through a really nice Ampeg Classic Series SVT 410he. They started off pairing it with an Ampeg PF- 500, which broke, the replacement was an Ashdown Mag 300 which also broke, and now they've hired an ancient Peavey firebass 700 with a broken input (you have to use the effects return thereby bypassing the preamp completely).

The amazing thing is, whatever amp they use, the sound out of that cab is always great! The 410he cabs are not cheap.They typically sell for around £700. Which leads me to the conclusion that you're much better off spending your cash on the best cab you can afford and economising on the amplifier rather than the other way around. I wonder if there's any other Basschattters out there who have had a similar experience of playing a cheap and cheerful amp through a high end cab and getting a great sound?
[/quote]


I know the venue well (says while whistling )

The first time I played there they actually had the Ashdown Mag300. Then that one disappeared and the Ampeg came in. Then the Ashdown came back again... but it did not work when I got there. Playing without a monitor was not fun... I was told it was fixed the week after when I played there again, but during the first set it cut out a few times (out on the FOH it was ok)... so during the break I got my RH450 out of my car and used that ever since (well, since last summer I tend to bring my Markbass combo).
I saw the Peavey when I last played there, on Thursday, but I did not use it.

And you're right, I could always get a cool sound out of that cab.
I use my combo now merely because placing it on top it's closer to my ears and it allows me to play at lower volumes, which seems to help our onstage sound. Our guitarists are also more sound conscious than they were even a year ago, and they themselves turn down onstage too, which is helping all of us hear ourselves better (we're a 7-piece, so if we don't restrain ourselves a bit it can get pretty chaotic).

The amp onstage, on most of the gigs I play, is merely used as a monitor... from that point of view as long as I can hear myself, the sound is not so important to me if I get a decent sound out there (I mean, I love to have a nice sound, but in some kind of gigs, you just know onstage sound is going to be suboptimal, and I don't worry anymore). A nice amp is useful there. The thing is that it does not need to be a hugely expensive one to have a good DI sound (I normally DI in those situations)... and then I'm in the hands of the sound engineer and what he's able to concoct within the limitations of the equipment and the room's acoustics.
When the amp is there to provide all bass, without PA support, then a good sounding rig is important... and like you, I think that speakers are the top priority.
I think a decent amp through great cabs will sound great, but a great amp through merely decent speakers, will just sound decent.

Edited January 18, 2014 by mcnach

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Consider the last thing that lies between your ax and you ears: it's your speakers. Everything that preceeds them all the way back to the strings will only sound as good, or as bad, as they will allow.

[0175westwood29]

tbh a good amp and cab will either make someone good sound good or someone bad sound very bad.

i have seen bassists absolutely kill it and sound amazing on a behringer ultrabass stack, that was enough for me to understand that a lot of the sound comes from your fingers or the way you play the amp does play a big part but its not all about the gear but the gear does help(if that made sense)

andy

[gjones]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1390053280' post='2340925']
.... and if it's hired, and broken, why wasn't it replaced?
[/quote]

Because they're a cheapskate bunch of bastards!

But saying that, they must have got a bloody good deal on that Ampeg cab, cos they ain't cheap.

Edit: How did the word 'bastards' get through the profanity filter?

Edited January 18, 2014 by gjones

[skej21]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1390073822' post='2341233']
Edit: How did the word 'bastards' get through the profanity filter?
[/quote]

If you type swearing in a Yorkshire accent like Sean Bean, it goes through...
http://youtu.be/5C8IuThoWuU

[Martin E]

The biggest factor which changes the sound for me is the venue you play in.

The sound varies so much from gig to gig that choice of instrument, amp and cab is sometimes almost irrelevant. Mainly decided by which corner or nook you and your gear happen to be jammed in whilst playing.

[4000]

It's all about finding the combination that works for you. A place I rehearsed in had one of those Classic 4x10s and I could never get a sound I liked out of it whatever bass or amp I used. Having said that I also tend to dislike most high end cabs I use (I tend to hate tweeters for a start) but it depends what amp and bass I'm using. It's all about personal taste at the end of the day.

[Delberthot]

I also know the venue you are referring to.

I hate that cab, all I ever get is rumble and clack from the tweeter. I could never get it loud enough to hear myself without over powering everything else on stage


I just bring my 15" cab and amp and sit them on top of their cab so that mine is at ear level.

In fact we'll be there on Thursday for the 9.30 slot.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Delberthot' timestamp='1390290242' post='2343527']
I also know the venue you are referring to.

I hate that cab, all I ever get is rumble and clack from the tweeter. I could never get it loud enough to hear myself without over powering everything else on stage


I just bring my 15" cab and amp and sit them on top of their cab so that mine is at ear level.

In fact we'll be there on Thursday for the 9.30 slot.
[/quote]


The problem with that cab is that because of the depth of the stage (or lack thereof) you end up with the speaker right by your arse, which can emit sounds but is pretty crap at hearing. That's why I now love putting my 12" combo on top as well. Lower sound onstage and everything is clearer.

[Delberthot]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1390316428' post='2343944']
The problem with that cab is that because of the depth of the stage (or lack thereof) [b]you end up with the speaker right by your arse, which can emit sounds [/b]but is pretty crap at hearing. [/quote]

So I've been told

I only used that Ashdown once and I had to crank it almost to 10 to hear it on stage whereas my MAG400 doesn't have to go anywhere near as high. Must have been faulty to have had to do that - at least it wasn't me that broke it

Edited January 21, 2014 by Delberthot