1x12" Cab Design Diary

[alexclaber]

I just came across the specs sheet for a very fancy bass cab from the '70s and the speaker sizes in that were all in cm!

I shall see if I can post the image in here - it's a Zoot Horn FF1:

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1436345295' post='2817220']
I just came across the specs sheet for a very fancy bass cab from the '70s and the speaker sizes in that were all in cm!

I shall see if I can post the image in here - it's a Zoot Horn FF1:


[/quote]You were looking for a Behemoth.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1436346731' post='2817241']You were looking for a Behemoth.[/quote]

We can out-Behemoth that!

I think all the cone drivers in there are ATC ones - it doesn't mention it on this image but I found an earlier version of the same cab and it's ATC throughout. I imagine this cost the same as a car!



Your DIY 1x12" looks a lot more sensible!

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1436341787' post='2817164']




If anyone wants to redo this so the pics display directly then that would be great.
[/quote]

vane bracing, this is the back of the cab
[Img]http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx71/Phil_Starr/1x12%20prototypes%20vane%20brace_zpsfauvbstr.jpg" class="ipsImage" />


the internal bracing
[Img] http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx71/Phil_Starr/1x12%20prototypes%20internal%20bracing_zps9y14tdo5.jpg" class="ipsImage" />

With a bit more detail, this shot also shows the reinforced butt joints I use, a 25mm sq batten screwed and glued along all the joints. [Img]http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx71/Phil_Starr/1x12%20prototypes%20brace%20detail_zpshldb6lcs.jpg" class="ipsImage" />

Edited July 8, 2015 by Roland Rock

[Phil Starr]

Thanks Roland

[Roland Rock]

You're

[stevie]

Well - I finally gigged the 1x12 last Friday. Phil drove over to one of our gigs and I swapped from my 15" + 8" to the Basschat 12 during the break. I didn't really have enought time to adjust the sound to what I wanted. The cab seemed quite forward in the midrange - so I backed off the mids using the active EQ on my bass and that seemed to do the trick. The sound seemed clearer but not as full as my own cab, but because of the circumstances, I really can't say much more about the sound quality. A tweak on the bass control of my LMIII, or more mid-cut, would probably have given me the fatness I was missing - and if I'd had more time I would have done some more tweaking. (For reference I had the LMIII tone controls flat with just a touch of HF boost).

Anyway, Phil was able to have a good listen from the audience (in fact he made up most of the audience!).

I can say a few things about the cab, however. It is fairly sensitive: you don't need a 1,000W amp to get it loud. The top end is detailed. Dispersion is not bad - better than your average 12, I'd venture. I had the cab on the floor and I could hear myself when I was standing a couple of feet in front of it with the band playing. I would have preferred a bit more top end in my ears, but it was acceptable.

I play with a reasonably loud drummer who puts the kick through the PA. You could say we're a loud pub band. The cab had no problem keeping up - it didn't even break into a sweat. (For those who use the Markbass LM III, my master volume was on 10-11 o'clock.) I think a lot of players would never need more than just a single one of these, especially if they were able to angle it up slightly.

I really like this driver a lot. We're going to try some alternatives, but the Beyma seems to offer tremendous bang for the buck and is only a couple of kgs heavier than neo alternatives at twice the price.

We could do with some other players gigging these now.

Edited July 12, 2015 by stevie

[Phil Starr]

Hi All.

A couple more tests tried out this weekend. On Fri I took the speakers along to Stevie's gig and we swapped for the 1x12 in the second half. He was using his own compact 15 with a 6" midrange/tweeter in the first half. Stevie plays in a blues band and his bass was wired with flats. I'll leave Stevie to comment but out in the audience it was obvious the 12's had far more mids than his standard set up. Plenty of clean bass from the 12's but not the warmth he had from his own set up. They are loud too, the single 12 was easily loud enough and I went home with ears ringing! I'd normally have moved further back but I wanted a good listen to the details. The sound warmed up as he tweaked the eq and I reckoned with a bit more time he'd have got the sound he wanted.

On Sat we played a double bill with another local band. Much better bassist than yours truly, Quite funky with a fair bit of slap thrown in. These things pop beautifully and using two of them they are loud. They were completely clean sounding at 6 o'clock but had to be turnes down to 3 o'c to match the drums (kick only miked up) even so he was a little too loud, but you know what it's like when you try out a new rig Thanks to Gary Sydenham for this.

The overall impression I'm getting with now three bassists is of a really clean open sound from these speakers. On the minus side they really show up any untidiness in your technique but equally show off any expression you use in your playing. I reckon that's down to the slightly extended top end compared to many 12's. They respond well to eq twiddles too.

I've three weeks with no gigs so I'll have time to write up the plans now i hope.

Hi Stevie looks like you pipped me to the post. BTW really enjoyed the gig.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Phil Starr

[stevie]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1436697862' post='2819967']

The overall impression I'm getting with now three bassists is of a really clean open sound from these speakers. On the minus side they really show up any untidiness in your technique .....
[/quote]

I'm happy that I was able to highlight that particular feature for you, Phil.

[Phil Starr]

I meant me of course.

[Thunderpaws]

This all sounds like great progress.

I wonder if the natural mid bump will help me punch through more against three guitars with my Genz Streamliner. I am drink rely going to make one of these. Time to start ordering parts. Where's best to get the driver from?

Lots of hardwork from you guys, well done.

Cheers,

Garry

[stevie]

This is where we need some feedback, Thunder. The mids definitely help the cab cut through, and it's good to know that they are there if you need them.

If I were building the cab for myself, I'd probably fit a notch filter to take away some of the mids. If there is a general consensus that the box is too mid-prominent, we could do that to provide the option of a more even sound balance.

Edited July 12, 2015 by stevie

[Chienmortbb]

Stevie/Phil Did your measurements show pronounced mids or is this something that has just shown up in real life testing?

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='Thunderpaws' timestamp='1436705945' post='2820047']
This all sounds like great progress.

I wonder if the natural mid bump will help me punch through more against three guitars with my Genz Streamliner. I am drink rely going to make one of these. Time to start ordering parts. Where's best to get the driver from?

Lots of hardwork from you guys, well done.

Cheers,

Garry
[/quote] Looks like you have the same spell checker as me Gary.

You can get them from Blue Aran they are about £75 plus postage. I am not sure whether they could offer a group buy but maybe I'm comjunvtion with the UK Distributor of Beyms they could do a deal.

I will leave that to The three musketeers though.

[stevie]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1436707287' post='2820060']
Stevie/Phil Did your measurements show pronounced mids or is this something that has just shown up in real life testing?
[/quote]

I didn't carry out a full-range measurement, I'm afraid, which would have shown up an imbalance between the bass and midrange. I did a ground plane LF measurement and a gated mid/high measurement but couldn't join them together because the first one was not calibrated. In any case, you need to factor in the changes in frequency response from the cabinet being on the floor, which makes a gated measurement problematical because it relies on filtering out all reflections.

I've found that an RTA works well for checking the sound balance of a speaker in situ, but I didn't do one when I had the speakers here. I do know that my own 15" + 8" is ruler- flat on the RTA, which suits me, although others may well prefer a mid-foward balance. I can have a closer look at this when the speaker makes its way over here again.

Edited July 12, 2015 by stevie

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1436712482' post='2820116']


I didn't carry out a full-range measurement, I'm afraid, which would have shown up an imbalance between the bass and midrange. I did a ground plane LF measurement and a gated mid/high measurement but couldn't join them together because the first one was not calibrated. In any case, you need to factor in the changes in frequency response from the cabinet being on the floor, which makes a gated measurement problematical because it relies on filtering out all reflections.

I've found that an RTA works well for checking the sound balance of a speaker in situ, but I didn't do one when I had the speakers here. I do know that my own 15" + 8" is ruler- flat on the RTA, which suits me, although others may well prefer a mid-foward balance. I can have a closer look at this when the speaker makes its way over here again.
[/quote]

No problem. I would prefer a flat response but I have enough control on my amp to EQ it flat if need be. Incidentally what sort of frequencies do you consider Mids? I tend to think 400-800Hz but I think many think mids start much lower.

[stevie]

Yes, I agree. With a decent eq, you can generally iron out this kind of problem (although it may turn out not to be a problem at all). I also prefer to have a well-balanced cab that allows me use my eq to fix room problems rather than cabinet problems. I tend to think of mids on bass guitar as anything between 400 and 1600Hz - and I think that the prominence I heard was probably centred at about 800Hz.

Ultimately, we're just talking about sound balance. The sound was smooth, crisp and clear and there was nothing nasty or unpleasant there - just that the mids were more forward than I'm used to.

Edited July 12, 2015 by stevie

[Phil Starr]

We've been busy on this thread recently so just to remind people the response plots are available on page 10, posts #291 and#296, there's a couple of peaks at 200Hz and just above 2000Hz plus some other small irregularities that you'd get with any cab. I'm not sure about the midrange forward sound we both heard, I'd assumed it was that Stevie's original speaker was a little bass heavy but if he had measured it as flat then I've no reason not to look elsewhere. It was a very obvious difference which I heard out in the audience and Stevie heard from just in front of the cab.

I'd agree with Stevie that

"[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Ultimately, we're just talking about sound balance. The sound was smooth, crisp and clear and there was nothing nasty or unpleasant there - just that the mids were more forward than I'm used to. "[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Doubtless we'll investigate this next time we get a few hours together.[/font][/color]

Edited July 13, 2015 by Phil Starr

[Phil Starr]

More news, one of the cabs is to be reviewed by Dan Veall, bass reviewer of Interactive Guitar Magazine http://www.iguitarmag.com/reviews/?issue=&brand=&producttype=Bass and of course Dood of this parish. At the present the Cab is about to wing it's way to Dan, or it will be once UPS collect it.

It'll be great to have a professional and independent opinion of the cab and I'd like to thank Dan for taking the time to do this.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1436867829' post='2821446']
More news, one of the cabs is to be reviewed by Dan Veall, bass reviewer of Interactive Guitar Magazine http://www.iguitarmag.com/reviews/?issue=&brand=&producttype=Bass and of course Dood of this parish. At the present the Cab is about to wing it's way to Dan, or it will be once UPS collect it.

It'll be great to have a professional and independent opinion of the cab and I'd like to thank Dan for taking the time to do this.
[/quote] Having seen some of Dan's reviewsI think this is great news.

On another matter. Stevie is comparing the cab to his own 15/6 cabinet. Can you tell us more about that cab? Is it your own design or based on ages boy plan. What drivers? Size and weight?

By the way I thought I knew a bit about speaker design but have learned how much I did not know during this process. Thanks for the hard work and patience with me and others.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1436867829' post='2821446']
More news, one of the cabs is to be reviewed by Dan Veall, bass reviewer of Interactive Guitar Magazine http://www.iguitarmag.com/reviews/?issue=&brand=&producttype=Bass and of course Dood of this parish. At the present the Cab is about to wing it's way to Dan, or it will be once UPS collect it.

It'll be great to have a professional and independent opinion of the cab and I'd like to thank Dan for taking the time to do this.
[/quote] Having seen some of Dan's reviewsI think this is great news.

On another matter. Stevie is comparing the cab to his own 15/6 cabinet. Can you tell us more about that cab? Is it your own design or based on ages boy plan. What drivers? Size and weight?

By the way I thought I knew a bit about speaker design but have learned how much I did not know during this process. Thanks for the hard work and patience with me and others.

[6v6]

Great to see this progressing!

FWIW [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/200152-1x12-diy-cab-build/page__st__30"]my SM212 loaded cab[/url] has been working well for over 18months of regular gigging - AFAICS it's very similar to this design (Phil Starr gave me quite a lot of help working out the design so it's no surprise...)

I made a shelf port, started out with 50Hz tuning, then tried 40Hz for a few months by adding an extra piece to the shelf. Overall for my needs (4 string primarily) the 50Hz works best - it's subtle but I get a bit more punch and power handling vs the 40Hz setup.

It's quite surprising how far just one of these cabs/drivers will go - powered with a LM3 it's more than enough for most pub gigs - only recently I started feeling that having a second one for some larger venues would be a nice idea, have to clear some space in the shed to make another one!

The comments about mid prominence are interesting - I've not really noticed that being an issue, but in a brief side by side comparison with an Ampeg 4x10HLF recently it definitely did have more mids than the (quite scooped) sound of the Ampeg.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1436875424' post='2821536']
Great to see this progressing!

FWIW [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/200152-1x12-diy-cab-build/page__st__30"]my SM212 loaded cab[/url] has been working well for over 18months of regular gigging - AFAICS it's very similar to this design (Phil Starr gave me quite a lot of help working out the design so it's no surprise...)

I made a shelf port, started out with 50Hz tuning, then tried 40Hz for a few months by adding an extra piece to the shelf. Overall for my needs (4 string primarily) the 50Hz works best - it's subtle but I get a bit more punch and power handling vs the 40Hz setup.

It's quite surprising how far just one of these cabs/drivers will go - powered with a LM3 it's more than enough for most pub gigs - only recently I started feeling that having a second one for some larger venues would be a nice idea, have to clear some space in the shed to make another one!

The comments about mid prominence are interesting - I've not really noticed that being an issue, but in a brief side by side comparison with an Ampeg 4x10HLF recently it definitely did have more mids than the (quite scooped) sound of the Ampeg.
[/quote]I'd recommend this thread for anyone thinking about building their own thread 6V6 understates the effort he put in, I just acted as a sounding board for his ideas. It ended up as a very professionally put together speaker.

If I remember correctly in his first few try outs he found the open sound of these speakers something that took a few tries to get used to and to reset the eq appropriately.

[stevie]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1436872480' post='2821499']
On another matter. Stevie is comparing the cab to his own 15/6 cabinet. Can you tell us more about that cab? Is it your own design or based on ages boy plan. What drivers? Size and weight?
[/quote]

It's my own design - which means it's not necessarily helpful for comparison purposes. It's also a work in progress. The main component is a BMS 15N620 in 4 ohms (I believe Passinwind has a cab with something similar) and I currently have an Eminence 8" midrange in a separate cabinet on top crossed over passively at about 800Hz. I recently started experimenting with an Audax PR170 midrange, as that extends much higher in frequency and allows for a simpler crossover, but my aim is to eventually buy a neo midrange if I can find one as good as the Audax.

At the moment it's in a cab that's comparable in size to the 12" we're putting together here - an Ashdown Mini 15, but I've carried out modifications to that with flared ports and other stuff. I also have a slightly larger cab standing by that it will probably end up in - along with my final choice of midrange driver.

It's all good, clean fun, but I hate doing the woodwork...... Phil has said he might build me a cab for this design in poplar ply - which could be interesting.

[Passinwind]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1436892396' post='2821809']
It's my own design - which means it's not necessarily helpful for comparison purposes. It's also a work in progress. The main component is a BMS 15N620 in 4 ohms (I believe Passinwind has a cab with something similar)

It's all good, clean fun, but I hate doing the woodwork...... Phil has said he might build me a cab for this design in poplar ply - which could be interesting.
[/quote]

My cabs use the BMS15N630, they are 8 ohm drivers. I have used a lot of BMS compression drivers in various builds too, they are especially nice. When I started building cabs with dedicated mid drivers Audax came up a lot and I would still like to try them. I settled on readily available B&C 6MD38s as used in some EAW PA cabs, and still have a pair of those in my PA tops.

I also don't really enjoy woodworking all that much. I have a luthier friend who has lots of cab building experience, and a well equipped shop quite near me that I could use for free, or maybe a six pack. I am stubborn and have always just built outdoors with rudimentary hand tools -- not so smart.

The Beyma S212 is not readily available in the US through any of my usual channels, FWIW. If I were building this design I wouldn't let that stop me though, there's always a way.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Passinwind