1x12" Cab Design Diary

[Thunderpaws]

Any sound clip comparison for this most recent test. I am particularly interested having a 210 focus providing the sound for my Genz Benz Streamliner 600.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1439987491' post='2847271']
I think - no, I am pretty sure I know what it is we are hearing. It's not 'mid peaks' we are hearing, more mid presence. Its a lack of deep (sub) lows and rounded off top end that gives the sense of a prominent mid range - especially when the lil' chap is placed on the floor and we stand over it. The effect I have found to be similar on the odd cabinet I have reviewed that allows the ability to turn off a tweeter. This appears to be less prominent on a cabinet that has a naturally baked in scooped tone (either through speaker, cabinet design or both.) So, I'd suggest that this speaker is actually doing a good job of reproducing frequencies throughout the mid lows, mid range and low mids, but it's natural roll off gives the impression of having a mid boost. This would seem to support my feeling that this speaker would be great as a mid-bass driver in a multi-driver set up. This is of course outside the remit of this project. Thumbs up for the sensitivity through the mid range though. I do like that this cabinet and speaker combination offers a really nice fatness all the way up the G string of my bass, rather than the notes disappearing in an EQ's scoop.
[/quote]

I'm hoping that this is about right. A lot depends upon what you call mids of course, the two octaves from say 250-1000Hz or from 1000-4000Hz. The cab I sent you had the lower tuning so the bass rolls off long and slow which would really exaggerate that sort of effect. The 50Hz ports should improve things a little I hope, nothing toodramatic but a little more warmth. Glad you like the fatness on the higher strings, that's the advantage of the extended high end but cutting out the tweeter.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Thunderpaws' timestamp='1439996354' post='2847400']
Any sound clip comparison for this most recent test. I am particularly interested having a 210 focus providing the sound for my Genz Benz Streamliner 600.
[/quote]

Well the Streamliner sounded amazing through the 2x10 design I have here. I recorded the sound on a little Olympus recorder I have here, if they are any good I'll put them up.

[Chienmortbb]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1439996791' post='2847409']
Well the Streamliner sounded amazing through the 2x10 design I have here. I recorded the sound on a little Olympus recorder I have here, if they are any good I'll put them up.
[/quote]Not to complicate things, what 2x10 design?

[Phil Starr]

That'll be another thread, but in the words of Blue Peter once the 12 is published i'll be saying, 'and here is the one I made earlier' Just to tease a little more we also tried out a 1x15 with the 3015HO and a Deltalite today

[JTUK]

An observation... and IMO.. most people can put cabs together with just a little basic engineering.
The trick is to reconcile a cab on paper and a cab in the flesh.

You are probably going to make and tweak quite a few things to get it where you want but your success
will be down to how well you know what you want to hear and what others want hear.
So paper stats in the grand scheme of things don't really add up to much ... if the end result isn't pleasing.

With regard to a few cab makers, this is most pertinent, IME

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1440239050' post='2849257']
An observation... and IMO.. most people can put cabs together with just a little basic engineering.
The trick is to reconcile a cab on paper and a cab in the flesh.

You are probably going to make and tweak quite a few things to get it where you want but your success
will be down to how well you know what you want to hear and what others want hear.
So paper stats in the grand scheme of things don't really add up to much ... if the end result isn't pleasing.

With regard to a few cab makers, this is most pertinent, IME
[/quote]
That's completely fair. We've been transparent about the design spec and the cab meets the spec. It's flatter than most cabs up to 4k with good power handling down to 40Hz due to the extended Xmax. It works well in a gig and responds well to eq tweaks which is what you would expect from a cab with a flat response, but the test of any cab is how it sounds and whether users like it. That's why I'm delaying releasing the final design until a few more people have tried it.

I've been consistent in my advice over the years. A cab can be technically challenged but still sound great. You won't squeeze the best out of a driver if the cab is compromised but if it sounds great and you can live with the restrictions it's a great cab. Ultimately sounding good with bass is the test of any bass cab.

[stevie]

Several members have put their finger on the prominent midrange problem. It's not a peak, it's a broadband rise through the midrange and it probably has a number of causes. First, the low inductance voice coil will produce in a rising response. There may also be a baffle step factor, although the width and the ground location of this type of cab usually tend to cancel that out. Also, I wonder if Phil hasn't made the cab slightly big, which may be depressing the LF slightly.

I wouldn't read too much into the quick measurements I did. I was mainly checking the driver parameters, cabinet tuning and system sensitivity as well as looking for obvious problems. More extended measurements are certain to show what we have heard.

[Phil Starr]

Yes, I've been wondering if reducing the size of the cab would give the sort of bass peak people have come to associate with a bass cab and perceive as neutral sounding. Reducing the size would obviously make it lighter and more manoeuvrable. That would sacrifice a little bass extension but subjectively increase the bass. We can test this out easily enough by inserting 10l of bricks into the cab and re tuning. If we get time and Stevie can run measurements then I'll try it.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1440406741' post='2850312']
That's completely fair. We've been transparent about the design spec and the cab meets the spec. It's flatter than most cabs up to 4k with good power handling down to 40Hz due to the extended Xmax. It works well in a gig and responds well to eq tweaks which is what you would expect from a cab with a flat response, but the test of any cab is how it sounds and whether users like it. That's why I'm delaying releasing the final design until a few more people have tried it.

I've been consistent in my advice over the years. A cab can be technically challenged but still sound great. You won't squeeze the best out of a driver if the cab is compromised but if it sounds great and you can live with the restrictions it's a great cab. Ultimately sounding good with bass is the test of any bass cab.
[/quote]

Yes, not a criticism of the cab as I haven't heard it or played through it... I'm just saying you can read it all out of a book and you can play around with all the sums you like but if you don't have good ears, you are stuffed.

[fleabag]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1439986442' post='2847253']
The Beyma was much more even in sound across the strings and frets.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure i said as much about my 2 x 2x10 Beyma SM10's a year or so back

Having re-speakered ( and port altered ) my cabs with Beyma SM10's on your reccomendations ( or was it Stevie ? or Lawrence ? - i'll have to find the thread - it could have been all 3 of you ) i am still immensely happy with mine. Although not in lightweight cabs (2 x old Peavey TX210 boxes - heavy ) the sound is the business. With all the technical work done by you guys ( plotting, port addition and lengths etc ) i ended with some fabulous cabs. It'd be nice to find some 12mm top quality Birch in a skip so i could lighten these 2 cabs. I wonder what the chances are ?

Oh yeah - you guys are the mutts danglies !

Edited August 25, 2015 by fleabag

[fleabag]

Aha. The thread in question

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/235679-can-i-improve-my-cab-at-all/page__hl__can%20i%20improve%20my%20cab%20at%20all"]http://basschat.co.u...0cab%20at%20all[/url]


[b][i][quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1400177509' post='2451544']
Sorted ! At last

The nitty gritty - these Beymas coupled with the cab mods made, care of the friendly gurus and big thanks to them, specially stevie who plotted the graphs - (cheers mate), has really tightened the sound up nicely. Same output volume as the higher wattage Eminence ( though we ignore those watts mostly, i think ) But the authority, the balance, ... is lovely.

F'instance - with the umodded cab + Betas, if i were to say play 14th fret on the G, then immdediately play the 14th fret on D, there was this bloom and jump in volume - strange, as you might think this was more to do with the pickups or strings or both ( Nordstrand P/J SE set ) but i doubt its them. In fact it wasn't...

Its happening in front of my ears right now, as i have one unmodded cab + beta , right next to the Beyma / modded. ( dual channel power amp ) The Beyma / Modded cab has controlled this, and anywhere else i got that scenario of bloom / vol jump. It wasnt horrendous, but anyone would notice it. The evenness across lows mids and highs has improved a lot, the tone is def. tighter, and for not much layout after factoring in sales of the Betas ( 2 have gone already ) it turned out a cheap upgrade

We call that a result !

2nd cab to do now, but since its going to be a carbon copy, no need to bore the audience with this one[/quote][/i][/b]

Edited August 25, 2015 by fleabag

[Phil Starr]

4.15am, you must sleep less than I do!

I'm pleased it has worked out for you, it won't be long before I repeat your experience as I go to work on a 2x10 design, those Beymas still look like the best value for money available in the UK at the moment.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Phil Starr

[Beer of the Bass]

If the volume of the box does decrease, that would potentially make the design more attractive to me, not so much for portability (as we've finally sorted out a decent sized car) but for easy stowing in my pokey little house! Right now I'm not doing many gigs outside of very small acoustic things, but if any louder projects get off the ground I'll probably look into one of these.
Regarding the midrange response, I recently put together a little cab for practice, low volume jazz and acoustic gigs using a Faital 10FE200/4. It's a medium-duty driver at best but the midrange response is quite similar to the SM212 with a gentle rise from just below 1k without pronounced peaks and top end extending to somewhere around 4-5k. As it turns out, I really enjoy that voicing for bass guitar, it seems clear and open but not harsh even when adding some upper mid with EQ.

[fleabag]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1440489235' post='2851124']
4.15am, you must sleep less than I do!

I'm pleased it has worked out for you, it won't be long before I repeat your experience as I go to work on a 2x10 design, those Beymas still look like the best value for money available in the UK at the moment.
[/quote]

I dont sleep, period !

Yes they're doing well, have seen a few gigs, and as i'm still in the same band, they'll be seeing some more real soon.

Thanks to you & the Muskies

[Chienmortbb]

We should really wait till the 2x10 thread is running but.,,which 10" Beymas are you using?

[fleabag]

The SM110/n's , as recommended by the one of the Muskies

Yeah i know its in a 1x12 thread, but backing up ( as if they even needed it ) the Muskies recommendations on Beyma drive units, because they're damn good

Back in early 2014, Blue Aran sent me 4 x SM110/n's free postage, £200. He makes very little profit on these and BA are great to deal with. If you fancy any Beymas, buy them from BA if you can



Sorry about squishing the photo - The original on the Beyma site stretches right across my 24" Dell monitor. I had to do something !

Edited August 25, 2015 by fleabag

[Chienmortbb]

OK back on track. If the baffle size is reduced will the baffle step not also rise in frequency? Also with the slot pots will the driver be relocated for optimum baffle step reduction?

[Phil Starr]

Of course the frequency will rise, and ideally the speaker would be mounted off centre in the baffle to minimise this effect. In practice there is little evidence though to suggest that the difference will be audible and in any case with a small cab and a 12" speaker practical considerations mean there is little opportunity to reposition the speaker or to resize the baffle without making the speaker an impractical shape. For small gains there is probably nothing much that can be done and to be honest I haven't considered it in this design.

[Dood]

Good morning folks,

Firstly may I apologise for being away from this thread for a bit, I know you are all waiting for information from me.

I fully intended to be able to spend lots of time working on a description of the cabinet as well as being involved in the testing through independent review.

Unfortunately, as life has a habit of re-directing my energies, I've had to contact Phil to say that, at least for the foreseeable future I will have to pull out from being able to deliver the write-up to you.

Indeed, for now I'm even finding it difficult to 'just be a musician'. Hopefully these ups and downs will be temporary and I can get back to doing what I should be!!

I will of course try to keep dipping in and offering any experience with the cabinet as requested, though I won't be on BassChat in an active capacity certainly for the next month or so. That said, I have to sell a load of kit, so at least expect to see that...

This is a brilliant thread and really enlightening. BassChat really is the best

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1440668893' post='2852780']
Good morning folks,

Firstly may I apologise for being away from this thread for a bit, I know you are all waiting for information from me.

I fully intended to be able to spend lots of time working on a description of the cabinet as well as being involved in the testing through independent review.

Unfortunately, as life has a habit of re-directing my energies, I've had to contact Phil to say that, at least for the foreseeable future I will have to pull out from being able to deliver the write-up to you.

Indeed, for now I'm even finding it difficult to 'just be a musician'. Hopefully these ups and downs will be temporary and I can get back to doing what I should be!!

I will of course try to keep dipping in and offering any experience with the cabinet as requested, though I won't be on BassChat in an active capacity certainly for the next month or so. That said, I have to sell a load of kit, so at least expect to see that...

This is a brilliant thread and really enlightening. BassChat really is the best
[/quote]

Dan thanks for the insights you've given us. I completely understand where you are coming from and I hope everything works out for you so that you are back with us soon. Keep on playing that bass.

[Phil Starr]

Hi Everyone. I finished the cab this morning, sorry about the wait but I had decided not to come back on until there was something to report.

If you live in the SouthWest you can go and try them out at the Southwest bass bash this Sunday. Please go along if you can make it. I really want as many opinions as possible so I can learn what you want and incorporate that into future designs. The cab fits the spec you all helped to draw up but does it meet your needs???

Please please go along and try them if you can, I'm sure theres also going to be lots of other lovely gear there too and great people. http://basschat.co.uk/topic/270435-south-west-bass-bash-yes-a-real-one-sunday-18th-october/page__pid__2886424__st__30#entry2886424

I'll put up plenty of pics soon. It still need another cuple of coats of Tuffcote and a better grille but this is it. Get to the bass bash if you can

[Thunderpaws]

Well done Phil. Enjoy. I will start mine after Christmas.

[Chienmortbb]

I could not get to the Bash, I used up all my Brownie points going to Glenn Hughes on Sat. However would love to hear the response of those that went to the Bash.

[stevie]

Graham T kindly had collected 2 prototype cabs from Phil and taken them along to the bash. I set them up side by side and invited people to compare them - without telling them what the difference was. In fact, the first one was built from 1/2" ply, fully braced (with tubular ports). The second was in 3/4" ply with no bracing (with a slot port). Phil had previously told me that he preferred the 3/4" ply version and most of those who listened on the day stated a preference for the 3/4" ply cab, with only one person preferring the other one. The sound difference was not considered to be huge but it was definitely there.

Woodinblack made a recording of the two cabs. When he puts them up, everyone will be able to compare them and also get an idea of what they sound like. Most people thought the cabs were well balanced, even though I specifically mentioned our concern that the mids might be too forward. Only two people said they would prefer less midrange, although several said they thought the cabs would benefit from a tweeter.

Let's see what the general consensus is when people hear the recordings. If it's generally favourable, we'll move on quickly to drawings, photos, measurements, etc. so that anyone who wants to can get building.

Edited October 19, 2015 by stevie