LukeFRC Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 It's been interesting looking at the new class D mini bass amps coming out of NAMM and elsewhere - it does strike me though that design wise there seems to be confusion as too what they are trying to build and what the end user wants/expects. In traditional non-class D amps there is are certain vernaculars of what they are providing that they fall into - and when they offer more advanced features you understand why they have them for the market they are aiming for. For instance the Ashdown abm has the valve preamp and the sub octave- and you can imagine that the type of folk who wanted an ashdown would use it, likewise the first time I saw a EA head and the features it had it was kinda clear what the uses for it would be and the perspective users. It's less clear IMO for the class D stuff. a few years ago the MarkBass Little mark seemed to be the standard, preamp into a class D module with a couple of filters thrown in. My old tecamp puma was literally an analogue preamp going into the amp module. and then the TC RH450 seemed to throw the cat among the pigeons with a fully digital front end too* - and added tuners and sweepable mids and all sorts. I think the Aguilar Tone Hammer and the GB Streamliner as exceptions which had a very simple brief and did them well. And now every other amp seems to be adding more and more bells and whistles. The video and thread about the peavey amp kinda prompted this. Sure they are good amps. Flashing lights and two filters to make the bottom end seem bigger than it actually was... I wonder if ten years ago we would have seen that kind of feature as a positive or a negative? So I don't know what a lot of these amps are trying to do, what their designs are aiming for. it doesn't seem to be high end sound reproduction, just squeezing more into a smaller space. *I know yamaha and ashdown got there first but the RH450 seemed to be the first one that sold well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I think that most probably know what they are aiming for. The advent of digital has opened up a lot of creativity in the bass world. It's a great time to be a bass player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1390648424' post='2347859'] I think that most probably know what they are aiming for. The advent of digital has opened up a lot of creativity in the bass world. It's a great time to be a bass player. [/quote] i think we're still waiting for one or two people to put forward the "benchmark" class D amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I'm not sure this is a problem with class D amps per se. Being 'old school' didn't stop Trace coming up with the MP11. I think it's the case that electronics in general are getting cheaper, so adding features is relatively inexpensive. So we get more and more power, and a greater number of bells and whistles. Over the years manufacturers have often tried to differentiate themselves with more perceived VFM by adding a feature or two, even if their actual value is limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skychaserhigh Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 The more bells and whistles means more stuff to go wrong. Any amp with a control called Kosmos and lights that you can change the colour of is not for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='skychaserhigh' timestamp='1390650242' post='2347882'] The more bells and whistles means more stuff to go wrong. Any amp with a control called Kosmos and lights that you can change the colour of is not for me. [/quote] I think I could live with 'Kosmos', but I'd definitely be looking for a way to disable those lights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='skychaserhigh' timestamp='1390650242' post='2347882'] The more bells and whistles means more stuff to go wrong. [/quote] Sort of. The advent of digital technology means that adding more features usually just means a bit more code rather than more hardware. Besides, chips are cheap and phenomenally reliable these days (otherwise how would a billion-transistor CPU chip ever manage to work?). The real trick is to make all the user interfaces [s]idiot [/s]user proof so the amp can't be damaged when things are connected wrongly. Sure, user-definable light colours are just a gimmick (and other 'features') but so what if it costs nothing extra? Someone might like them and the wider the appeal, the greater the sales volume and the cheaper the manufacturing costs, though whether that trickles down to a lower price is a different matter. Anyway, the market will soon determine what really matters and I doubt many people would refuse to buy an otherwise good amp just because it had programmable lamp colours as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='skychaserhigh' timestamp='1390650242' post='2347882'] The more bells and whistles means more stuff to go wrong. Any amp with a control called Kosmos and lights that you can change the colour of is not for me. [/quote] I am 100% with this. The whole attraction of my Orange Terror Bass is that it only has four knobs, and two of them don't do anything. In the world of "real amps" my Matamp also has four controls, three of which might as well be welded in place because I never touch them. Anything that allows you a hundred ways to improve your sound also offers you:[list] [*]a hundred ways to screw it up [*]a load of distractions when playing live [*]endless possibilities of annoying your bandmates [/list] Just because you [u][i][b]can [/b][/i][/u]doesn't mean you [u][i][b]should[/b][/i][/u]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1390656130' post='2347981'] Just because you [u][i][b]can [/b][/i][/u]doesn't mean you [u][i][b]should[/b][/i][/u]. [/quote] Agreed, but if you have an amp with only one control then you have no choice. Choice is a good thing isn't it? Just because some people can't deal with it is no reason to deny others. If we applied your principle to music itself then we'd only need a handful of songs in the world, one for each genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I'd say they are adding, or need to add, these features as they lack the true sound. My current fave amp is a DB amp...and that has very basic EQ by comparison...but the sound is ALL there. It doesn't need anymore.... even its rivals, or my version of rivals, generally used a graphic as well. Never liked that part of them...talking 400 and SVT 2 here... and shouldn't have been necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='skychaserhigh' timestamp='1390650242' post='2347882'] The more bells and whistles means more stuff to go wrong. Any amp with a control called Kosmos and lights that you can change the colour of is not for me. [/quote] But those lights are FABULOUS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1390656417' post='2347985'] Agreed, but if you have an amp with only one control then you have no choice. Choice is a good thing isn't it? Just because some people can't deal with it is no reason to deny others. If we applied your principle to music itself then we'd only need a handful of songs in the world, one for each genre. [/quote] There's a flaw here, though (to me...). My 'choice' has always been pretty much minimalist. I play drums, bass and guitar ([i]no, you fool; not all at once..![/i] ), and have always thought that less is more. I respect the wishes of those attracted to the 'City of Tiny Lights' gadgets, bells and whistles, but would appreciate the 'choice' of having nowt to frig about with. It's purely consumer commercialism, imo, driven by the perceived need to renew, just because one can; built-in obsolescence. Yes, I'm old. That explains it..? No, I've always been like this. Thanks anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1390661828' post='2348061'] There's a flaw here, though (to me...). My 'choice' has always been pretty much minimalist. I play drums, bass and guitar ([i]no, you fool; not all at once..![/i] ), and have always thought that less is more. I respect the wishes of those attracted to the 'City of Tiny Lights' gadgets, bells and whistles, but would appreciate the 'choice' of having nowt to frig about with. It's purely consumer commercialism, imo, driven by the perceived need to renew, just because one can; built-in obsolescence. Yes, I'm old. That explains it..? No, I've always been like this. Thanks anyway. [/quote] it's the lack of focus on "sound" that gets me. Over the years everything has seemed to go towards a "simple as possible tone path with the smallest number of the highest quality components" as the way to go... this doesn't seem to be happening with some of these smaller amps, and if anything the other way - tecamp for instance going from a high end amp unit to a cheaper one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJ Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 The main problem with the class D stuff is the lack of real umph. There is no other way of describing it but all the class D stuff I've tried is missing that real 'weight' to the sound. I do want to try the Aguilar Tone Hammer as allegedly this amp suffers least from this issue, but until someone brings out a class D module that sounds the same to my knackered old ears as a good old a/b design with huge transformers, then I'll keep the SWR and continue to be on first name terms with my chiropractor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1390656130' post='2347981'] I am 100% with this. The whole attraction of my Orange Terror Bass is that it only has four knobs, and two of them don't do anything. In the world of "real amps" my Matamp also has four controls, three of which might as well be welded in place because I never touch them. Anything that allows you a hundred ways to improve your sound also offers you:[list] [*]a hundred ways to screw it up [*]a load of distractions when playing live [*]endless possibilities of annoying your bandmates [/list] Just because you [u][i][b]can [/b][/i][/u]doesn't mean you [u][i][b]should[/b][/i][/u]. [/quote] Ah, but your Terror also has a DI, effects loop and and a gain control. Even that knob for mids is a bit suspect. Bells and whistles I tell you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1390661828' post='2348061'] There's a flaw here, though (to me...). My 'choice' has always been pretty much minimalist. I play drums, bass and guitar ([i]no, you fool; not all at once..![/i] ), and have always thought that less is more. I respect the wishes of those attracted to the 'City of Tiny Lights' gadgets, bells and whistles, but would appreciate the 'choice' of having nowt to frig about with. It's purely consumer commercialism, imo, driven by the perceived need to renew, just because one can; built-in obsolescence. Yes, I'm old. That explains it..? No, I've always been like this. Thanks anyway. [/quote] I agree it's pure commercialism but you do have the choice - just don't play with their fancy gadgets. I bet very few of us use our PCs for every single thing they [u]could[/u] do, we just use them for what we want them to do and ignore the rest. If you want basic simplicity then buy an abacus Anyway, I bet people said the same things when the electric bass was invented . . . all that extra gear with all those controls - madness I tell you, madness, it'll not end well, and another thing . . . . (cont'd p94) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='JPJ' timestamp='1390662335' post='2348071'] The main problem with the class D stuff is the lack of real umph. There is no other way of describing it but all the class D stuff I've tried is missing that real 'weight' to the sound. I do want to try the Aguilar Tone Hammer as allegedly this amp suffers least from this issue, but until someone brings out a class D module that sounds the same to my knackered old ears as a good old a/b design with huge transformers, then I'll keep the SWR and continue to be on first name terms with my chiropractor [/quote] I don't disagree (not enough exp to) I know the powersoft tecamp stuff sounded nice. But it's part of the thing I don't get.... do PA amps that are class D get the same decription? Some do, and you can go on forums and they discuss the low freq. abilities of various amps... but you get to bass amps.... and.... one of the big companies can bring out a loud 450w amp with lots of clever DSP and power management and it takes a while for people to work out that it's only 120w or whatever it was - which isn't the worst thing but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I think they`ve a clear idea of what they`re trying to do. For many of us, though big valve amps have that oomph that Class Ds are reputed to not have, big valve amps are impractical to cart about for many of us. Add in that many bassists now use effects such as drive and compression, and have different tones for each band they`re in, or for different songs in their sets, small portable amps incorporating all of this and a tuner make a lot of sense. Further this with how good recording studios and PAs are now (especially if whoever the sound-person is really knows how to get the best out of them) bad backs etc aren`t the only option anymore. Sure, if I had a back that could stand them, and a vehicle that could carry them I`d have an Ampeg valve amp and 810 but it`s nice that I can get a sound I`m happy with out of gear that fits my needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1390663427' post='2348087'] I agree it's pure commercialism but you do have the choice...[/quote] I beg to disagree still. I don't know of many new cars without built-in climatisation, or electric windows, or turbos. A simple car radio doesn't exist any more. There are not many 'basic' amps left to 'choose', and not using the crap on an amp with a digital converter is not an option. OK, OK, I'm not the 'market' being targetted. Old fogies like me don't have enough 'clout' to get products made for 'em. No problem; I just buy older stuff which is at least repairable. I'm not typical, I know, but no, 'choice' is not there, in the loyal sense of the word. Time for my nap, perhaps. Is my cocoa ready, nurse..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 For years I owned big and heavy valve amps (last was a Mesa Boogie 400+) and I can truthfully say that I don't miss them at all. I'm happy with my choices and these days my sound gets as many compliments as ever it did in the days of valves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1390664501' post='2348099'] I beg to disagree still. I don't know of many new cars without built-in climatisation, or electric windows, or turbos. A simple car radio doesn't exist any more. There are not many 'basic' amps left to 'choose', and not using the crap on an amp with a digital converter is not an option. OK, OK, I'm not the 'market' being targetted. Old fogies like me don't have enough 'clout' to get products made for 'em. No problem; I just buy older stuff which is at least repairable. I'm not typical, I know, but no, 'choice' is not there, in the loyal sense of the word. Time for my nap, perhaps. Is my cocoa ready, nurse..? [/quote] Ah, the old cross-purposes thing. Tricky things, forums. I was thinking more about our choice to [u]use[/u] all these new bells and whistles. I take your point about cars but once upon a time things like electric windows, aircon etc were expensive extras, now they are bundled in with the car for no appreciable extra cost because it's easier for manufacturers to build a million of one thing rather than 100,000 of 10 things. Sure, you might only want one of the things and not the other nine, but so what if it's hardly costing anything? Just don't bother to use it. Of course, there are loads of suppliers out there that will build you exactly what you want but you'll have to pay for that choice - and loads of people do otherwise boutique amp, cab and bass makers wouldn't remain in business. But bespoke goods at mass-production prices is never going to work, in any market, and I don't think it ever has. First world problems eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1390669194' post='2348167'] Ah, the old cross-purposes thing. Tricky things, forums. I was thinking more about our choice to [u]use[/u] all these new bells and whistles. I take your point about cars but once upon a time things like electric windows, aircon etc were expensive extras, now they are bundled in with the car for no appreciable extra cost because it's easier for manufacturers to build a million of one thing rather than 100,000 of 10 things. Sure, you might only want one of the things and not the other nine, but so what if it's hardly costing anything? Just don't bother to use it. Of course, there are loads of suppliers out there that will build you exactly what you want but you'll have to pay for that choice - and loads of people do otherwise boutique amp, cab and bass makers wouldn't remain in business. But bespoke goods at mass-production prices is never going to work, in any market, and I don't think it ever has. First world problems eh? [/quote] Cross purposes..? Hardly. The original question was concerning the growing plethora of D-class amps with added 'features', wondering whether there was any real added value in these novelties. Choice..? No, not using these gadgets is not the same as not having them in the first place. Are they cheap..? Yes, in both senses of the word; the product would/should cost less if these nonsensical elements were not included. If the choice is between having such an article or having to get a custom build to get a simple D-class amp, I'd maintain that the choice is very limited. I'm convinced that the reason for these extras is merely an attempt to be remarked, to distinguish ones product in a crowded market, to 'generate buzz'. Once the fad has passed, get on with selling the next week's wonder. Rinse and repeat. Cynical, me..? Not 'alf, I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1390671258' post='2348199'] Cross purposes..? Hardly. The original question was concerning the growing plethora of D-class amps with added 'features', wondering whether there was any real added value in these novelties. [/quote] no it was more wondering what was behind the design process - more what do they think us bass players want and prioritise. I for one almost bought a RH450 when they came out, 4 band sweepable eq, inbuilt tuner and so on - stuff I would use. I was all set to find one till I heard one... and then realised there had been design decisions that I wasn't so excited about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1390671676' post='2348207'] no it was more wondering what was behind the design process - more what do they think us bass players want and prioritise. I for one almost bought a RH450 when they came out, 4 band sweepable eq, inbuilt tuner and so on - stuff I would use. I was all set to find one till I heard one... and then realised there had been design decisions that I wasn't so excited about. [/quote] Apologies, Luke, if I've mis-represented your intentions. I wonder what bass player asked for programmable colour-changing lighting panel, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Basschatters. You seem to be forgetting - the bass amp with the lights is a Peavey. A PEAVEY! Look at the Peavey logo, for Chrissake! When have their aesthetics ever targeted any sector other than that in the USA which wears naff 80s mullets? It is for this reason that I could score an all-valve high plate voltage 1u rack preamp for less than 50 quid, whereas if it didn't say 'Peavey' on the front in hairdressing scissor font and have a stupid double X in the name it would have cost me about 400 quid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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