Class D amps - do the manufacturers know what they are trying to do?

[VTypeV4]

My Ashton has both torroid and traditional transformers.. Heavy iron both ways!

The Trace has a pair of square 'drop-thru' types.

With regards to the class D bass amps, I think those amps have their place and I do think the companies that make them very much have their eye on the ball. Coupling of valve pre-amps (Orange and Genz) and more advanced modelling digital front ends (TC amongst others) to the lightweight amps is a great idea..

It's a compromise and doesn't work for everyone (myself included) but for the jobbing musician they're great and the people making them know that. IMO at least!

For me, it's glass, Iron and weight that do it..

[Subthumper]

The other downside no one has mentioned about class D is that they are very difficult to repair, especially when combined with modern production techniques, lead free solder and surface mount components. It's certainly the kind of thing I would turn away from my worshop. I don't think you'll be seeing vintage ones in years to come.

[flyfisher]

That's true, but it's the same high levels of integration and production techniques that have brought us affordable computers, smartphones and the like.

[discreet]

[quote name='Subthumper' timestamp='1390937325' post='2351561']
The other downside no one has mentioned about class D is that they are very difficult to repair, especially when combined with modern production techniques, lead free solder and surface mount components. It's certainly the kind of thing I would turn away from my worshop. I don't think you'll be seeing vintage ones in years to come.
[/quote]

That's a very good point - my recently-acquired amp is over forty years old but was repaired quite easily.
Class D are of their time, therefore are part of the 'throw it away and buy a new one' culture - fashion also has a part to play.

[discreet]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1390938498' post='2351582']
That's true, but it's the same high levels of integration and production techniques that have brought us affordable computers, smartphones and the like.
[/quote]

Yes and they will ensnare humanity and make us all puppets of the Zombie Lord, I tells ya!!

[Subthumper]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1390938498' post='2351582']
That's true, but it's the same high levels of integration and production techniques that have brought us affordable computers, smartphones and the like.
[/quote]
All of which has a lifespan of about five years, either because it breaks down and can't be repaired or becomes obsolete. I'm sticking with my valve head, best sound I ever had. And I can repair and modify it at will.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Subthumper

[mcnach]

[quote name='Subthumper' timestamp='1390952326' post='2351776']
All of which has a lifespan of about five years, either because it breaks down and can't be repaired or becomes obsolete. I'm sticking with my valve head, best sound I ever had. And I can repair and modify it at will.
[/quote]


phones and computers break down... just not very often. Obsolete? Yes, but that's due to increasing demands... the phones/computers are still capable of doing what they did when new.

An amp is another matter entirely.

[flyfisher]

I know what you mean, but who would want a 'brick' of a mobile phone or a computer running DOS these days?

My attic is full of stuff that is all in perfect working order that nobody wants any more. Vintage amplifiers are the exception rather than the rule.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Subthumper' timestamp='1390937325' post='2351561']
I don't think you'll be seeing vintage ones in years to come.
[/quote]

So the few that do make it through will then be [i]vintage[b] AND rare[/b] [/i]and all the more desirable as a result ...

[largo]

Or just like PCs, modern bass amps will become modular so we can swap out faulty components ourselves & not have to go to techs for repairs. Maybe Markbass have the right idea.

[tauzero]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1390671676' post='2348207'] no it was more wondering what was behind the design process - more what do they think us bass players want and prioritise. I for one almost bought a RH450 when they came out, 4 band sweepable eq, inbuilt tuner and so on - stuff I would use. I was all set to find one till I heard one... and then realised there had been design decisions that I wasn't so excited about. [/quote]

I've had a couple of Ashdown Superflys (Super and Superduper), and the EQ section is very impressive but utterly wasted on me. I then had a couple of EA iAmps (500 and 800) and didn't use the EQ on that to anything like its potential (fortunately the base tone was pretty much as I wanted it). Now I've got a Puma and I can cope with the EQ on that. However, I can see someone who has different tonal requirements to me finding a more detailed EQ very useful. Shame Ashdown discontinued the Superfly, although the power amp section was somewhat compromised, that preamp was nice.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1391469245' post='2357623']
I've had a couple of Ashdown Superflys (Super and Superduper), and the EQ section is very impressive but utterly wasted on me. I then had a couple of EA iAmps (500 and 800) and didn't use the EQ on that to anything like its potential (fortunately the base tone was pretty much as I wanted it). Now I've got a Puma and I can cope with the EQ on that. However, I can see someone who has different tonal requirements to me finding a more detailed EQ very useful. Shame Ashdown discontinued the Superfly, although the power amp section was somewhat compromised, that preamp was nice.
[/quote] I used a superfly when they first came out- they were provided as the back line at a industry gig we were doing. anyway the surprise of seeing an amp that small (this is before micro amps were popular) and the hammering of the eq buttons to try and make it fit are what I remember. that and putting my hand on it at the end and burning myself.
Ashdown are a good example of trying about 2 new things every year in the lightweight market.

[squeezer]

As Bill F. said you can make a good or bad amp (with a good or bad power supply) of any class. Designing good class-D amps is more difficult but can be done, the other side of this is that because it's "easy" to do "high-power" class-D amps with SMPS (small, light) lots of manufacturers cut corners and make bad ones with insufficient energy storage or power reserve, and this applies just as much to bass amps (maybe more) as PA power amps.

But some do it properly -- if you want *really* loud punchy bass but think class D amps can't deliver it, you could try connecting one of these up to your pre-amp and cabinet(s)... ;-)

[url="http://www.pknc.com/3phase_eng.html"]http://www.pknc.com/3phase_eng.html[/url]

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='squeezer' timestamp='1391867897' post='2362139']
As Bill F. said you can make a good or bad amp (with a good or bad power supply) of any class. Designing good class-D amps is more difficult but can be done, the other side of this is that because it's "easy" to do "high-power" class-D amps with SMPS (small, light) lots of manufacturers cut corners and make bad ones with insufficient energy storage or power reserve, and this applies just as much to bass amps (maybe more) as PA power amps.

But some do it properly -- if you want *really* loud punchy bass but think class D amps can't deliver it, you could try connecting one of these up to your pre-amp and cabinet(s)... ;-)

[url="http://www.pknc.com/3phase_eng.html"]http://www.pknc.com/3phase_eng.html[/url]
[/quote] 15,000w watts into 4 ohms.... I think if you tried that you would get punchy sound..... one punch and your speaker cabs would disintegrate!

[squeezer]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1391868926' post='2362147']
15,000w watts into 4 ohms.... I think if you tried that you would get punchy sound..... one punch and your speaker cabs would disintegrate!
[/quote]
Probably wouldn't matter -- if you can afford this amp you can treat cabs as disposable :-)

If you want to hear what this would sound like you could just plug your cab into the the mains -- it won't be as loud as the bridged PKN (only 240V rms instead of 360V so about half the power) and it would only play a low G (for a very short time!), but it would be a lot cheaper way to explode your cab than buying the amp.

There are drivers that will handle these kind of power levels but they're not exactly small or cheap and you might need rather big boxes

[url="http://www.bcspeakers.com/products/lf-driver-neo/21-0/21ipal"]http://www.bcspeaker...neo/21-0/21ipal[/url]

3 series drivers in a 20 cubic feet ported box tuned to 33Hz will handle the full output of a bridged PKN20K, but I'm not sure even the most insane metal-head bassist would want to stand in front of a cab putting out 146dB SPL -- or 152dB if you had 2 of these cabs on a PKN40K...

Edited February 8, 2014 by squeezer

[discreet]

[quote name='squeezer' timestamp='1391867897' post='2362139']
But some do it properly -- if you want *really* loud punchy bass but think class D amps can't deliver it, you could try connecting one of these up to your pre-amp and cabinet(s)... ;-) [url="http://www.pknc.com/3phase_eng.html"]http://www.pknc.com/3phase_eng.html[/url]
[/quote]

If you've got the necessary ten grand to buy it, I'll try it!

[BassTractor]

[quote name='squeezer' timestamp='1391869648' post='2362153']
but I'm not sure even the most insane metal-head bassist would want to stand in front of a cab putting out 146dB SPL
[/quote]

I'm sick and tired of the negativity in this thread. Let's just all get one and try it! (Might bring the price down as well.)

[TomRichards]

I believe Vivid Amps does (vividamps.com)

Their approach is to make an amp that doesn't color your tone or signal at all, and reproduce the full range. The new VB1500 was designed using lots of comments from this forum but ultimately around their approach that bass players will use their bass or an outboard eq in many cases to get their "sound". So they try not to do anything to that.

Fuchs has a new Bass Bruiser Jr. which has a valve pre and Class D power section. Also knows what they are doing. Getting power without weight, cutting down on some of the heat, but keeping the warmth and life of tubes (fuchsaudiotechnology.com)

Check out both if you want to see what they are doing with Class D.

I will agree though, lots of new Class D stuff out there. The Peavey one with the chicken head knobs is a good little amp and has some nice retro touch with the knobs.

I saw a bunch of stuff at NAMM this year, everyone pretty equal. Nice stuff by Tecamp, Phil Jones added a new one, and even Fender had some decent additions.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='TomRichards' timestamp='1392160344' post='2365589']
I believe Vivid Amps does (vividamps.com)

[b]Their approach is to make an amp that doesn't color your tone or signal at all,[/b] and reproduce the full range. The new VB1500 was designed using lots of comments from this forum but ultimately around their approach that bass players will use their bass or an outboard eq in many cases to get their "sound". So they try not to do anything to that.

Fuchs has a new Bass Bruiser Jr. which has a valve pre and Class D power section. Also knows what they are doing. Getting power without weight, cutting down on some of the heat, but keeping the warmth and life of tubes (fuchsaudiotechnology.com)

Check out both if you want to see what they are doing with Class D.

I will agree though, lots of new Class D stuff out there. The Peavey one with the chicken head knobs is a good little amp and has some nice retro touch with the knobs.

I saw a bunch of stuff at NAMM this year, everyone pretty equal. Nice stuff by Tecamp, Phil Jones added a new one, and even Fender had some decent additions.
[/quote] isn't that just a power amp with a few extra knobs then?

I think you've hit something in that last para - "everyone pretty equal" - it's all the same few class D modules with 101 different manufacturers putting them in their own boxes with their own power amps - looking at photos of the newer tecamp stuff it's gone back a few steps compared to the earlier powersoft pumas in terms of what's under the hood... not saying they don't sound nice but....

[JapanAxe]

Regarding that much-vaunted OOMPH:

I had an Ashdown rig with mahoosive toroidal mains transformer and traditional solid-state power section. Every note came with a free OOMPH, but it wasn't until I got my first Class D / Neodymium setup that I realised that OOMPH had been denying me the subtlety, growl, and sweetness that I should have been getting.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1392162346' post='2365623']
Regarding that much-vaunted OOMPH:

I had an Ashdown rig with mahoosive toroidal mains transformer and traditional solid-state power section. Every note came with a free OOMPH, but it wasn't until I got my first Class D / Neodymium setup that I realised that OOMPH had been denying me the subtlety, growl, and sweetness that I should have been getting.
[/quote] I would suspect that it had more to do going from a mahoosive ashdown rig to the Genz Benz/TC with barefaced cabs than with the power supply!

[TomRichards]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1392162161' post='2365619']
isn't that just a power amp with a few extra knobs then?

I think you've hit something in that last para - "everyone pretty equal" - it's all the same few class D modules with 101 different manufacturers putting them in their own boxes with their own power amps - looking at photos of the newer tecamp stuff it's gone back a few steps compared to the earlier powersoft pumas in terms of what's under the hood... not saying they don't sound nice but....
[/quote]

Yes, in a way, the Vivid amp is now hybrid. It has a "flat" mode, meaning it bypasses the entire EQ section and is therefore technically, I guess, a power amp, but it added the EQ portion to make it more traditional.

Class D is a Class D is a Class D, so yes, pretty much equal. However, I did notice that everyone seemed to try and put their "color" on it. The Aggie sounds very Aguilar, and the Peavey sounds, well, Peavey. You can tell a difference. Vivid is the only one who is trying to make it full range-pure, if you will. Again, not everyones cup of tea, but it is different.

I was curious about power choices for most of the Class D stuff I saw. Seems 500 is now, "standard" and companies moving toward the 1000W range. Yes, in many cases, more is better, however my personal choice and opinion, as expressed here a lot, is that anything more then 500-700W is not needed by any bass player. No one I know plays in a way or in a band that needs that much to get their sound. If you need 1000W for the average club, you got problems. And once you go into the house sound, you only need enough to be a good stage monitor and color the first few feet of people.

Everything is coming down to weight vs power and how hot it runs. Hands down, the Fuchs has an aesthetic beauty live that the Class D's just can't reproduce, however for the same power I'm carrying 5-7 times the weight (3.5 or 5lbs for the Vivid vice 25lbs for the Fuchs or Hartke for that fact.)

Like I said, its like comparing a CD to a vinyl record. One is super clean and pleasing to the ear, the other has some noise but is much more alive.

[LukeFRC]

Well I disagree that all class D stuff is the same - we covered that earlier in the thread- comparing the inside of say your Vivid amp or a modern tecamp puma with a powersoft power amp and you would see the massive difference! I think what it is is that a lot of companies are using the same modules two or 3 to build the power amp and supply section of their amps.

I'ld also say that there are quite a few companies giving a "full range pure" sound to their amps - Glockenklang probably being the biggest, the review of their Blue Soul head in Bass Gear Magazine showed a ridiculously flat response.

[TomRichards]

Hey Luke, I'm not arguing with you. I'm just not sure companies like Glock were aiming to do that. It was just the way it came out.

While the insides are different, the results are basically the same.

However, its encouraging that now we have new options to discuss and debate over. It has been a long time since the bass world had as many choices that are powerful and quality and don't always break the budget!

Still, nothing beats valves for warmth. For me, I just will never lug the Ampeg SVT refridgerator around ever again.

[72deluxe]

I think the class D amps are designed to be portable. I don't miss the back ache of porting my old amp around, for sure. Some amps have more controls on them, but depending on how basic you want to be, that can be good or bad. I prefer them - after all, I don't have to actually use them do I?

Also, note that the "D" in class D does not mean digital! It is just a class of amplifier, in the same way that class A and B and C existed before hand. In fact, there are other classes too, including G and H and Lab Gruppen's so-called class TD (a floating D or something like that which I do not understand, but in testing its output power collapses with high frequencies).
As Wikipedia states: "[i]Class-D and class-E amplifiers are sometimes mistakenly described as "digital" because the output waveform superficially resembles a pulse-train of digital symbols, but a class-D amplifier merely converts an input waveform into a continuously pulse-width modulated (square wave) analog signal. (A digital waveform would be pulse-code modulated.)[/i]"

The argument on the sonic variations and controls on the front of the amp surely apply to the preamp stage, and not the power amp stage of the amplifier? This means the disgust with new features on an amplifier are related to the input and preamp stages. The argument over whether it is class A, B or D would be irrelevant. The question for this thread should therefore be: "Do these amplifier designers know what they're doing with the input stages?!" (or something equivalent).

Unless I am mistaken?