New Side Dots

[BigRedX]

If you've been reading the bass reviews you'll know that I recently bought a Lace Helix 5-string fretless which is a fine bass except that the side dots are where they would be on a fretted bass rather than on the 'fretlines'. If this was my only fretless it wouldn't bother me too much, but all my others have the dots in the 'correct' place so I want to move them to match.

My plan is to drill out the existing dots (1mm or so) and drill new holes for the dots in the correct place and hopefully use the sawdust generated by this, mixed with glue, to fill where the old dots were. Then using either [url="http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bindings,_trim/Trim:_Side_dots/Plastic_Side_Dot_Materials.html"]this[/url] or [url="http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Inlay,_pearl/Pre-cut_inlays/Pre-cut_Side_Dots.html"]this[/url] for my new side dots.

What I need to know is what sort of glue I should use to mix with the sawdust and how do I finish of the edge to blend it in with the existing glossy finish?

Alternatively is there a better way to achieve what I want to do?

[Dr.Dave]

I think your plan's sound , maybe the stumbling block being the sawdust and glue part. I'd either fill the holes from the drilled out dots with plugs of wood , maybe stained to match the fingerboard colour. Or use a matching strip of the dot material.

Glue wise. If I were doing the job as I outline I'd probably use a dab of epoxy.

The 'cut to size' stuff looks less fiddly to me than the smaller dot inserts.

[JimH]

You could always cover them with FretFx LED's, which can be made to be in the correct place for you.... This is also then reversible, leaving your bass in original condition should you ever wish/need to sell...

[url="http://www.fretfx.com"]www.fretfx.com[/url]

Edited July 4, 2008 by JimH

[johnnylager]

[quote name='JimH' post='232555' date='Jul 4 2008, 11:38 AM']You could always cover them with FretFx LED's, which can be made to be in the correct place for you.... This is also then reversible, leaving your bass in original condition should you ever wish/need to sell...

[url="http://www.fretfx.com"]www.fretfx.com[/url][/quote]
I've thought about these - do they actually come off ok though? Anyone?

[Prosebass]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='232278' date='Jul 3 2008, 08:47 PM']If you've been reading the bass reviews you'll know that I recently bought a Lace Helix 5-string fretless which is a fine bass except that the side dots are where they would be on a fretted bass rather than on the 'fretlines'. If this was my only fretless it wouldn't bother me too much, but all my others have the dots in the 'correct' place so I want to move them to match.

My plan is to drill out the existing dots (1mm or so) and drill new holes for the dots in the correct place and hopefully use the sawdust generated by this, mixed with glue, to fill where the old dots were. Then using either [url="http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bindings,_trim/Trim:_Side_dots/Plastic_Side_Dot_Materials.html"]this[/url] or [url="http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Inlay,_pearl/Pre-cut_inlays/Pre-cut_Side_Dots.html"]this[/url] for my new side dots.

What I need to know is what sort of glue I should use to mix with the sawdust and how do I finish of the edge to blend it in with the existing glossy finish?

Alternatively is there a better way to achieve what I want to do?[/quote]

The best method is to use a piece of the original wood. Try to contact Lace and ask them for some then cut inserts.
If this is not feasible then I would use a clear epoxy to mix with the sawdust.If the neck is a bolt on I would "rob" a minute amount of wood / sawdust from the rear of the neck joint and practice / test your method first.
On the subject in general I have a lined fretless and the ones I make have just side dots in the same position as a fretted.
I find no problem with either as I play fretted also and as I glance at the side dots on the fretless I automatically adjust my fingering forward of the dots as you would with a fretted....hope that made sense.

[BigRedX]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

The Fretfex seems quite a lot of money plus I'd have to have a custom spacing ordered so that the dots fall on the 'fretlines' rather than in between them. Overall I'm not sure it's worth the hassle. Alsi does the strip cover up the existing markings? There doesn't seem to be enough info on the web site for me to order with confidence. I have no desire to leave to bass in its 'original' condition. It's wrong. Apparently the next batch of Lace Helix fretless basses will have the dots in the correct place corresponding with where the fretline would be. Just one of the downsides or being an "early adaptor".

If this was my only fretless bass then it wouldn't be a problem, I'd just learn where the correct fingering positions are in relation to the dots. However my other three unlined fretless basses have the dots on the fretlines and therefore I don't want to have to think in order to adjust to the one bass that is marked differently.

IMO on an unlined fretless the dots should correspond with where the fretlines would be. Anything different is wrong and is laziness on the part of the manufacturer or luthier. I've only ever come across one other unlined fretless bass with the dots like this, and if I'd known the situation in advance I might have waited until Lace had sorted the problem out. Alternatively I do have fretless bass serial number 2!

[Prosebass]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='232647' date='Jul 4 2008, 01:06 PM']IMO on an unlined fretless the dots should correspond with where the fretlines would be. Anything different is wrong and is laziness on the part of the manufacturer or luthier. I've only ever come across one other unlined fretless bass with the dots like this, and if I'd known the situation in advance I might have waited until Lace had sorted the problem out. Alternatively I do have fretless bass serial number 2![/quote]

I disagree with you on this one for the reasons I cited earlier. Its just as easy to argue the point the other way in respect of a fretted or fretless having the same side markings so as not to confuse. I am sure laziness does not come into it at all its just a different interpretation.
Anyway who needs any markings on a fretless at all if you can play it properly ?
Ok then , I struggle with complex basslines on an unlined fretless... we can't all be Jaco

[BigRedX]

I think we'll have to agree to differ here, although I haven't seen any good quality unlined fretless basses that don't have the side dots where the frets would be. If you know different I'd be happy to be enlightened.

In the meantime I've plenty of food for thought for getting my bass side dots how I want them.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='233245' date='Jul 5 2008, 05:18 PM']I think we'll have to agree to differ here, although I haven't seen any good quality unlined fretless basses that don't have the side dots where the frets would be. If you know different I'd be happy to be enlightened.

In the meantime I've plenty of food for thought for getting my bass side dots how I want them.[/quote]


RE: Side Dots and unlined fingerboards; the side dots are note markers, and not in between some non existent fretlines. This is the luthierie tradition in unlined fingerboards be they electric basses or whatever, you should find this in fretless basses with unlined fingerboards from Warmoth, Alembic, Fender, Rickenbacker, Musicman, Pedulla, Ken Smith, Fodera, Rob Allen, Harvey Citron, Joe Veillette, Harry Fleishman, Rick Turner etc. In a lined fretless fingerboard, the side dots are not note markers but position markers. You will see this to be true of the above manufacturers as well.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='233321' date='Jul 5 2008, 08:48 PM']RE: Side Dots and unlined fingerboards; the side dots are note markers, and not in between some non existent fretlines. This is the luthierie tradition in unlined fingerboards be they electric basses or whatever, you should find this in fretless basses with unlined fingerboards from Warmoth, Alembic, Fender, Rickenbacker, Musicman, Pedulla, Ken Smith, Fodera, Rob Allen, Harvey Citron, Joe Veillette, Harry Fleishman, Rick Turner etc. In a lined fretless fingerboard, the side dots are not note markers but position markers. You will see this to be true of the above manufacturers as well.[/quote]

Thank you.

[synaesthesia]

An Upright bass should not have side dots most acoustics don't; and Stagg - well i wouldn't say they were the paragon of virtue or tradition for luthierie. There are a couple of posters who said they have seen examples of reputable manufacture of unlined fingerboard basses with side dots marking positions as opposed to notes that were not (a) custom order, ( probably an oversight from a manufacturer not familiar with fretless instruments, if you have any examples - post them here. The world should know and after 30 years of playing unlined fingerboards, I'd like to know too.

[tauzero]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='233591' date='Jul 6 2008, 02:25 PM']An Upright bass should not have side dots most acoustics don't; and Stagg - well i wouldn't say they were the paragon of virtue or tradition for luthierie. There are a couple of posters who said they have seen examples of reputable manufacture of unlined fingerboard basses with side dots marking positions as opposed to notes that were not (a) custom order, ( probably an oversight from a manufacturer not familiar with fretless instruments, if you have any examples - post them here. The world should know and after 30 years of playing unlined fingerboards, I'd like to know too.[/quote]
NS, who you might consider slightly more reputable in luthiery terms, have fingerboard dots on their EUBs (I actually would prefer them to have rather less than they do). Conversely, Palatino didn't put them onto the VE-500 (so I stuck some on...). I don't see why the absence of dot marks on acoustic DBs should mean that there shouldn't be any on EUBs. After all, classical guitars don't have any side or front fretboard markings, so by your reasoning, nor should any other guitar.

My first fretless bass was a Frontier, which I suspect was a Matsumoku (and I regret having sold it and replaced it with a fretless Fender P, a vastly inferior instrument but it was in the days when I was name-driven). It had side dots in the positions one would find them in on a fretted bass.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='tauzero' post='236326' date='Jul 10 2008, 09:57 AM']NS, who you might consider slightly more reputable in luthiery terms, have fingerboard dots on their EUBs (I actually would prefer them to have rather less than they do). Conversely, Palatino didn't put them onto the VE-500 (so I stuck some on...). I don't see why the absence of dot marks on acoustic DBs should mean that there shouldn't be any on EUBs. After all, classical guitars don't have any side or front fretboard markings, so by your reasoning, nor should any other guitar.[/quote]



Don't put words in my mouth. The NS have as note markers not in between notes. Your Frontier bass did not influence the world of fretless fingerboards.

[escholl]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='232647' date='Jul 4 2008, 01:06 PM']Apparently the next batch of Lace Helix fretless basses will have the dots in the correct place corresponding with where the fretline would be. Just one of the downsides or being an "early adaptor".

Alternatively I do have fretless bass serial number 2![/quote]


i don't know much about them, but obviously you were one of their first customers. if they are changing over, have you thought about just getting in touch with them, rather than drill holes in your bass?

you never know, maybe they can sort it out for you if you explain it to them.

just an idea?

[tauzero]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='233591' date='Jul 6 2008, 02:25 PM']An Upright bass should not have side dots most acoustics don't; and Stagg - well i wouldn't say they were the paragon of virtue or tradition for luthierie. There are a couple of posters who said they have seen examples of reputable manufacture of unlined fingerboard basses with side dots marking positions as opposed to notes that were not (a) custom order, ( probably an oversight from a manufacturer not familiar with fretless instruments, if you have any examples - post them here. The world should know and after 30 years of playing unlined fingerboards, I'd like to know too.[/quote]


[quote name='tauzero' post='236326' date='Jul 10 2008, 09:57 AM']NS, who you might consider slightly more reputable in luthiery terms, have fingerboard dots on their EUBs (I actually would prefer them to have rather less than they do). Conversely, Palatino didn't put them onto the VE-500 (so I stuck some on...). I don't see why the absence of dot marks on acoustic DBs should mean that there shouldn't be any on EUBs. After all, classical guitars don't have any side or front fretboard markings, so by your reasoning, nor should any other guitar.

My first fretless bass was a Frontier, which I suspect was a Matsumoku (and I regret having sold it and replaced it with a fretless Fender P, a vastly inferior instrument but it was in the days when I was name-driven). It had side dots in the positions one would find them in on a fretted bass.[/quote]


[quote name='synaesthesia' post='237209' date='Jul 11 2008, 12:00 PM']Don't put words in my mouth. The NS have as note markers not in between notes. Your Frontier bass did not influence the world of fretless fingerboards.[/quote]

First, on the subject of the NS, I wasn't addressing the point of where the dots fell relative to the notes, I was addressing your statement "An Upright bass should not have side dots most acoustics don't; and Stagg - well i wouldn't say they were the paragon of virtue or tradition for luthierie."

Second, you asked for examples. I posted one. Are you saying that the Japanese factories making high quality basses in the 70s and 80s are to be ignored?

Third, I was following your logic about fingerboard markings on acoustic instruments determining whether there should be fingerboard markings on electric instruments.

Just because you haven't encountered something doesn't mean it ain't so.

[skankdelvar]

In answer to your original question, which I seem to recall was about drilling and filling side dots...

The idea of using 'dowels' is sound, as it avoids filling, sanding and refinishing the neck.

Cocktail sticks are good for this - they're hard, unlike matches. Also, they're already light coloured, which means they'll accept a bit of colouring, if needed. You'll find them in supermarkets.

Get the type with one sharp end and one flat end, so you've got a nice smooth machined flat end surface, which removes the need for rubbing down flaky end bits.

You'll need the cocktail sticks, a small drill bit of the same (or very slightly larger) diameter as the cocktail stick and a small tube of glue, preferably wood glue. If you have access to a hand drill, this will give you much more control, as electric drills have a habit of running wild...

You may wish to test the following procedure on some scrap, or on part of the neck where it won't be seen.

First, brace the neck so it doesn't move

Decide how deep you want to drill - suggest no more than 2mm. Measure this off against the side of the drill bit, and wrap a bit of tape around the drill above this point, so you've got a little depth gauge.

Measure and cut a section off the flat end of the cocktail stick to a slightly shorter length.

Cut off more flat ends.

Suggest you start at the position marker nearest the bridge end of the neck, so if your first effort's less satisfactory, you won't be playing up that end as often as down nearer the nut (!)

Using a tack or a small nail, gently create a tiny depression in the centre of a position marker, to site the drill bit.

Drill the first hole to depth.

Tiny dab of wood glue on the end and sides of the dowel and site it in the hole to be filled.

Push gently in till the flat top is dead flush with the edge of the finger board. Using something like the face of a steel rule to push it in will help to ensure a flush fit.

Gently dab off any surplus glue that may extrude from the hole. Try not to smear it along the neck edge.

Check that your result is satisfactory by sighting along the edge of the neck. If you're not sure, very gently run your finger across the dowel. It should be flush and you shouldn't feel it protruding. Don't push it in too far, or you'll have a tiny pit...

If acceptable, repeat process along the neck until finished. If not, adjust your measurements. (***best tested on scrap beforehand, as mentioned above***)

Leave to set. Make a nice cup of tea and watch 'Stenders.

If the dowels are flush, you won't need to rub the neck down.

If the filled holes look too obviously different in colour from the surrounding wood (don't know if yours is light or dark) then a tiny dab of wax crayon, or wood dye / stain of a close colour should disguise the dowels. No need to re-spray...

Or you could just run an angle grinder along the edge of the neck...