xilddx Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 What do we think? ________________ [color=#666666][font=Times][size=5]To mark Independent Venue Week, former gig venue manager Andy Inglis offers a straightforward and occasionally sweary list of ten things that need to change in order to make them survive.[/size][/font][/color] http://thequietus.com/articles/14349-live-music-independent-music-week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japhet Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Ban Saturday night 'talent' shows from TV to get the British public off their sofas and out in the real world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 This is what Kit wrote, and I agree. [color=#333333]This would be a great list if it addressed that fact that the vast majority of bands playing small to medium venues do. not. get. paid. London venues like the Lexington and Shackwell Arms have promoters who welcome hundreds of people through the door, but do not even give the bands a few free drinks. This is when tickets cost £7-9 quid, and the bar is rammed 'til 2am.[/color] [color=#333333]Being a musician, particularly in London, is f***ing expensive. We work hard and pay a lot of money to rehearse to entertain people - to bastardise Andy's plumber analogy, you wouldn't expect to supply your plumber with champagne, but you also wouldn't expect her to do the job for free. I wish more promoters would start treating bands with respect and at least covering their travel expenses, if nothing else.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamdenRob Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Sounds a bit self justifying to me if I'm honest.... How about small venues actually paid bands that played there? This always used to happen when I was in bands back when I was 14, why has it changed? When you guys played the lexington the other week it was packed, do they imagin their bar would be that busy with no live music? Needs to be more respect for the bands and less - I am the saviour of the music industry crap you get from venue owners... [i]*edit* same thing said much better in the post above.[/i] Edited January 27, 2014 by CamdenRob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 The problem with London is that venues are living in denial. In the days when there was a thriving A&R presence then it was worth playing for free (or heavens forbid doing pay to play), but these days it's just another gig in another town. Why play in London for little or no money to largely disinterested audience when you can play Birmingham, Liverpool or Newcastle (to name but three locations) to an enthusiastic audience and get paid for you efforts. Right now the only London gigs that the Terrortones play are "genre gigs" where the bands all have a common musical background and the audience knows what sort of thing to expect and are appreciative of what the bands are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliasMooseblaster Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1390830930' post='2349960'] This is what Kit wrote, and I agree. [color=#333333]This would be a great list if it addressed that fact that the vast majority of bands playing small to medium venues do. not. get. paid...[/color] [/quote] I also think Kit is spot on with that one. The rest of his list is quite astute, judging by my own experience, but his first point - the idea of a band demanding a rider - is frankly alien to me. "You can get a hot meal, some water, and two drinks each"? I can't remember the last time I played a gig that came with that good a deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Rock Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Of course I agree that bands should be paid, but do you think that NOT paying them harms the venue in any way? Is there a shortage of bands willing to play for free? I'm not sure there is, as many will do so to 'raise their profile' and 'get out there'. So, the venue gets to pull extra punters in, but with little or no outlay. They're quids in. So, although this is unfair, I'm not sure that it's a factor when trying to save independent venues. Another point I'm in two minds about is the "STFU during performances" policy (is that notice still up at the Jazz Cafe?) - I suppose I'm hypocritical in that I'll get annoyed if someone is chatting loudly when I want to listen, but then I may well (especially after a few ales) chat to friends. I got a bollocking from a post-rock nerd for chatting to a mate I hadn't seen for ages at Sigur Ros at Brixton Academy last year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lw. Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 The only thing that really needs changing with a lot of the small venues is the management. They're always woefully disorganised, lazy, greedy & rude. People sometimes need to stop being romantic about these venues & how they're the last place for bands to play & that they need saving. They should be allowed to run themselves into the ground & go bankrupt then at least there's some chance that someone better will come along that has a passion for music & a half decent business brain, then we'd all get what we want. Thankfully there are a few venues like this coming through - it just takes time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 An entertaining rant by Mr Inglis but entirely suspect. Seven of his ten suggestions involve either reducing his overhead; placing limitations on his competitors; and forcing both his suppliers and 'the guvvinment' to hand him (and his business sector) scads of cash with no strings attached. That his enterprise has recently closed may explain his focus on finances and it is in some way understandable As is the case with so many people these days, Mr Inglis sees himself as the victim, that it is all someone else's fault and that his problems would be solved by a free hand-out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1390832521' post='2349998'] An entertaining rant by Mr Inglis but entirely suspect. Seven of his ten suggestions involve either reducing his overhead; placing limitations on his competitors; and forcing both his suppliers and 'the guvvinment' to hand him (and his business sector) scads of cash with no strings attached. That his enterprise has recently closed may explain his focus on finances and it is in some way understandable As is the case with so many people these days, Mr Inglis sees himself as the victim, that it is all someone else's fault and that his problems would be solved by a free hand-out. [/quote] I wholeheartedly agree Skank, the geezer wouldn't exist without the acts to book and the people who turn up to the venue to see them. While I believe his rant is really about touring bands in medium sized venues and not the sorts of venues most of us play, he has neglected the issues bands face, and the what the venues can be doing to encourage audiences into them and keep them coming back, especially for venues putting on largely unknown acts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barkin Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 [quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1390833334' post='2350008'] ...he has neglected the issues bands face, and the what the venues can be doing to encourage audiences into them and keep them coming back, [/quote] Yup. I don't know the venues mentioned, but as I get older I find the thought of an evening out standing on a floor that threatens to consume me from the feet upwards, drinking flat lager from a plastic "glass", and schlepping through an inch of piss to relieve myself, less and less appealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I think there must be only a select few bits of the music scene where things like hospitality riders even exist in medium sized venues. I've never, ever played in a venue that had towels! This week Dave Swarbrick, who is a bit of a legend in folk circles was ranting about a mid-sized Glasgow venue that didn't even provide a backstage loo or changing space, so he had to queue with the punters. And this is a guy who has been performing at the highest level (in folk terms) for more than 40 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 [quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1390830865' post='2349956'] Ban Saturday night 'talent' shows from TV to get the British public off their sofas and out in the real world. [/quote] I would guess that a large percentage of people that watch these shows aren't the sort of people who would be checking out live bands in small local venues if they weren't on, they'd just be watching something else on the TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0175westwood29 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 actually put music on the right night of the week! so many venues near us will only do music on a wednesday or tuesday, you can get some people there but they arent happy unless the venue is full which mid week it just wont be alot of the time. also covers bands can walk into paid gigs and charge 200 notes or more for a evening, dnt have a problem but then the originals band asks 50 quid and its like were asking way to much! andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I don't know whether I'm missing something here but why would venues pay bands when they'll pay for free? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmo Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I don`t know how famous you have to be to get a rider. I have wondered how big you would need to be to demand stuff.Having never been in a band i have no idea, only things your read about people such as Mariah Carey. Do local bands get a rider? Would you be able to ask for a case of lager for the band of 4 people and a 6 pack of crisps? as that doesn`t sound to over the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1390835227' post='2350050'] This week Dave Swarbrick, ... was ranting about a mid-sized Glasgow venue that didn't even provide a backstage loo or changing space, so he had to queue with the punters. [/quote] Were it not for such shortcomings, I would not - in 1978 - have found myself urinating next to Mr Wreckless Eric and our subsequent conversation about Eddie Waring (who coincidentally was in one of the traps) would never have taken place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) I know a few arts centres in London that get grants and funding from the arts council. Why would the arts council or government fund a venue that is aiming to make a profit? A profit making venue should understand business and that to get good bands you have to pay good money. I can't see the problem with getting a band to play Wednesday night for expenses to check out their quality and judge which Saturday night they'd fit. We go down a slippery slope when you start asking bands to bring their own following, fans won't come out every week to different venues all around London, so it should be down to the venue to consistently put on good bands and get a local reputation. That's not something that happens overnight so venues need to build that up slowly, one band a month, two bands a month etc... Edited January 27, 2014 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 We get at least a free case of beer for the band at most gigs we play. We also ask for food (or extra money to cover 5 cheapish meals of some description) at any non-local gigs. Most of the venues/promoters on the circuit that we play are quite happy to do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1390835897' post='2350061'] I don't know whether I'm missing something here but why would venues pay bands when they'll pay for free? [/quote] Because if you care about music bands are not interchangeable in the same way that one bass is not a direct substitute for another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1390836586' post='2350074'] Were it not for such shortcomings, I would not - in 1978 - have found myself urinating next to Mr Wreckless Eric and our subsequent conversation about Eddie Waring (who coincidentally was in one of the traps) would never have taken place. [/quote] I'm trying to imagine a situation that would have both Wreckless Eric & Eddie Waring in the same mens toilet - an "All-Star" edition of "It's A Knock Out" maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmo Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I guess the rider for a plumber, or any tradesman for that matter is copious mugs of tea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacey Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I would settle for some working plug sockets actually on the stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 [quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1390836586' post='2350074'] Were it not for such shortcomings, I would not - in 1978 - have found myself urinating next to Mr Wreckless Eric and our subsequent conversation about Eddie Waring (who coincidentally was in one of the traps) would never have taken place. [/quote] You do paint a picture, don't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Oh, as to the list of 10 things to change, here's mine:[list=1] [*]Run the venue as a profitable business, not a labour of love or an ego trip. [*]As above [*]As above [*]As above [*]As above [*]You get the idea ... [/list] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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