10 Things That Need To Change To Save Independent Venues

[Monckyman]

80% of young bands who fully believe they are the next big thing, are in fact, quite crap in actuality.
Promotors know this, their mates know this, and you know this too.
Perhaps they will improve, and become what they already believe they are, which is a good professional minded sharp band with a bit of vision and a good work ethic,some do.
But most of the young bands I've had the misfortune to mix in venues over the years can't seem to tell the time, or how to tune their instruments, or say thank you when you manage to remove that ear destroying earth hum from their Peavey Bandit.
Or bring a drummer to the soundcheck they insist on getting because it's like, "what real pros do" man.
Most bands don't seem to actually realise that venues sell BEER not music, and they are just a soft pull to get punters within 3 metres of a beer pump.
If they can't do that then the venues aren't interested and will stick on the old "DJ Hali toe sis" in da house innit. And fleece the students instead.
Bands that are together, and know their sh*t, use these venues to get where they are going, not the other way round.

On the other side of the coin, a clean toilet and some safe power would be a vast improvement on most venues.
It used to be sh*te P.As but they've sussed a crap sounds means no punters.
Promoters are mostly just unpaid chancers doing the venues legwork for them in the hope they make a few quid.
No, it's not too late to go to plumbing school.

[TimR]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1390851775' post='2350444']



Outstanding work gents.

So nobody here plays music because they enjoy playing music? If you're not getting paid, it's no fun, right?

Ah well, must just me be then.

Again.


[/quote]

I think you completely missed my point.

If you continue to expect plumbers to fix your leaks for free, don't be surprised if you run out if good plumbers.

The thing is you're never playing for free.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1390858873' post='2350652']
80% of young bands who fully believe they are the next big thing, are in fact, quite crap in actuality.
[/quote]

But the 20% (more like 5%, maybe lower) who are actually really good don't get paid either.

TBH with the new band I'm putting together this year I'm not intending to gig at all unless someone offers me money to do it. We'll be recording and trying to build a buzz that way and then see if the small festivals want some. I can't be arsed with spending all night at a sh*t venue to not even break even any more.

And no I don't want to join a wedding band. I'd rather not gig than do that. Actually I'd rather slit my wrists.

[TimR]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1390861255' post='2350713']


But the 20% (more like 5%, maybe lower) who are actually really good don't get paid either.

TBH with the new band I'm putting together this year I'm not intending to gig at all unless someone offers me money to do it. We'll be recording and trying to build a buzz that way and then see if the small festivals want some. I can't be arsed with spending all night at a sh*t venue to not even break even any more.

And no I don't want to join a wedding band. I'd rather not gig than do that. Actually I'd rather slit my wrists.
[/quote]

Playing in wedding bands is a very good way to learn very quickly how to be professional.

Anyway, my point is the promoters are trying to make a fast buck. They're not thinking long term. Get a bunch of good bands on your books by paying the good ones and not paying the bad ones. Then you'll get more people at your venues who want to listen to good new music, instead of relying on a constant turnover of bands bringing their mates 200miles in a dodgy bus. Then you can charge on the door to limit the numbers and make even more money.

It's called building and running a successful business.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1390851775' post='2350444']
Outstanding work gents.

So nobody here plays music because they enjoy playing music? If you're not getting paid, it's no fun, right?

Ah well, must just me be then.

Again.


[/quote]
[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1390856354' post='2350586']
Agreed. I'm worth it, and I greatly prefer to get paid. Not because I do it for the money (I have a grown-up job for paying the bills) but because that tells me I must be doing something right.

BUT that really only applies in one of my four bands, a pub-rock covers band.

The other three bands, I don't do it for the money cos there isn't any. Sometimes we get a tenner for the petrol, sometimes we get a few beers.

Sure I could say: "[i]I ain't getting out of bed for less than £50 a man[/i]". And then I could stay in bed.

Given a choice between playing for nothing and not playing at all, you know what? I'll play for nothing.

If people like your music enough then they'll come to your gigs. Then you'll get paid.

If you're playing to three members of your own family and a guy who was asleep at the bar when you arrived, then your audience is trying to tell you something. [size=1]Very quietly.[/size]
[/quote]

Same applies here Jack, I get paid in the punk covers band, don`t in the other two, but enjoy all bands equally. It`s my hobby. Blokes playing sunday morning football as their hobby don`t get paid (I don`t think?) so I consider it very fortunate that I can get paid doing my hobby.

[TimR]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1390862572' post='2350740']



Same applies here Jack, I get paid in the punk covers band, don`t in the other two, but enjoy all bands equally. It`s my hobby. Blokes playing sunday morning football as their hobby don`t get paid (I don`t think?) so I consider it very fortunate that I can get paid doing my hobby.
[/quote]

Who pays for the pitches and changing rooms?

[Marvin]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1390862572' post='2350740']



Same applies here Jack, I get paid in the punk covers band, don`t in the other two, but enjoy all bands equally. It`s my hobby. Blokes playing sunday morning football as their hobby don`t get paid (I don`t think?) so I consider it very fortunate that I can get paid doing my hobby.
[/quote]

Say for a minute your thing is sunday morning football. There you are and a few dozen people roll up to watch you play. What if the owner of the pitch thinks s/he can make a few quid by charging those spectators a fee to watch your game...and then, he starts selling refreshments to the spectators and making some more money. S/he then employs someone to take the money and sell the refreshments.

Who's not getting a cut from the money made from the entertainment?

Jack let slip how he regards music as an occupation as he has a 'grown up' job. Being a musician isn't a grown up proper job?

[TheRev]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1390852099' post='2350453']
No, I love playing music. I'll do that bit for free. However the endless hours travelling to venues and waiting around. That's the bit I want paying for… ;-)
[/quote]

Yup.
If a promoter will collect me and my gear from my house and drive me to the gig in time for me to have a pint before hitting the stage and then hang around for an hour afterwards waiting for me to finish basking in the appreciation of my fans before driving me home again while I chose what music goes on the stereo and then carrying my gear inside for me when we get home; then I'll play for free. The promoter will also have to actually promote the gig, instead of just sending me a snippy email asking why the gig hasn't appeared on facepuke/website within 20 minutes of the gig being agreed.

Mind you, some pubs are a bit deluded as well, I recently had a landlord who was actually shocked that we weren't prepared to drive 250 miles in a van full of PA gear for 20 quid each.

On a more constructive note, I personally think that venues that put on local band showcases where the bands are expected to sell a bunch of tickets to their mates at 5 quid a pop, would have a more successful night if there was no charge on the door with the understanding that these young local bands would play for free. The venue gets a crowd buying beer, the bands get to play to a crowd whuch isn't just made up of their mates and the other bands mates. The better/most entertaining/popular bands from these showcases could then be offered a paid gig on another night where they could realistically attract paying customers.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TheRev' timestamp='1390864609' post='2350804']
Mind you, some pubs are a bit deluded as well, I recently had a landlord who was actually shocked that we weren't prepared to drive 250 miles in a van full of PA gear for 20 quid each.
[/quote]

He may have been shocked but did he increase his offer or just find someone else for £20 each?

[quote name='TheRev' timestamp='1390864609' post='2350804']
On a more constructive note, I personally think that venues that put on local band showcases where the bands are expected to sell a bunch of tickets to their mates at 5 quid a pop, would have a more successful night if there was no charge on the door with the understanding that these young local bands would play for free. The venue gets a crowd buying beer, the bands get to play to a crowd whuch isn't just made up of their mates and the other bands mates. The better/most entertaining/popular bands from these showcases could then be offered a paid gig on another night where they could realistically attract paying customers.
[/quote]

That's what they do at the Hertford Corn Exchange at various times throughout the year and it seems to work quite well. It was through such an evetn that we were offered a support slot for a paid gig supporting Neville Staple (ex Specials).

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1390863904' post='2350781']

Jack let slip how he regards music as an occupation as he has a 'grown up' job. Being a musician isn't a grown up proper job?
[/quote]

Sorry Marvin, but no, not for most people.

The number of professional musicians is vanishingly small when set against the enormous number of amateur or semi-pro musicians who have day jobs.

One reason for that is because very few people are capable of earning a living wage + supporting a family + providing for retirement on the pittance that can be earned by most full-time professional musicians.

Even here on Basschat, a website very specific to musicians, the number of full-time pros is really very low.

In economic terms, music is very close to being a Perfect Market. You have a large number of buyers and sellers who can easily find out about each other (the Internet), virtually no barriers to entry, and an infinite supply of product (music) with little or no extraction costs involved.

In addition to which, as I hinted in an earlier post, music is seen as being cool, sexy and desirable by teenagers so there is an endless stream of new recruits prepared to do pretty much anything to get involved. And the Bank Of Mum & Dad will pick up the bills.

That also disposes of the nonsense analogy with plumbers.

Anyone who has done any economics will tell you that this situation can only really result in very low prices. On average, of course ... there's no accounting for One Direction.

Look around you. Every summer sees another 10,000 music graduates dumped on the market. Maybe 500 of them are bassists, I don't know, that's just a guess. Every one of those bassists is technically competent on bass, piano, plus at least one other instrument. They all understand music theory and can sight-read written parts. They have stored on their phones the numbers of hundreds of other musicians who they were at college with, and they can form multiple scratch bands in any [i]genre [/i]with a couple of texts.

Oh yes, and they're desperate for work and eager to do what it takes to get that work.

So, no pressure then.

This is NOT a great time to be a working professional musician with a family, and being a professional musician is NOT a grown-up job IMHO.

I genuinely mean no offence to anyone on Basschat in saying this, and particularly not to any professional musicians. I'm not criticising, I'm actually sympathising.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1390856354' post='2350586']
Agreed. I'm worth it, and I greatly prefer to get paid. Not because I do it for the money (I have a grown-up job for paying the bills) but because that tells me I must be doing something right.

BUT that really only applies in one of my four bands, a pub-rock covers band.

The other three bands, I don't do it for the money cos there isn't any. Sometimes we get a tenner for the petrol, sometimes we get a few beers.

Sure I could say: "[i]I ain't getting out of bed for less than £50 a man[/i]". And then I could stay in bed.

Given a choice between playing for nothing and not playing at all, you know what? I'll play for nothing.

If people like your music enough then they'll come to your gigs. Then you'll get paid.

If you're playing to three members of your own family and a guy who was asleep at the bar when you arrived, then your audience is trying to tell you something. [size=1]Very quietly.[/size]
[/quote]

We will have an originals sets...admittedly from the same main band..and it will not make any difference to our fee structure.

It makes it slightly easier to be a known entity and do an mixed covers set... but the main thing is that people buy what you are selling.
I've known original bands that travel the lenght of the country for a spot on a bill...and to my knowledge, they don't get paid.
They have been going for more than a few years.... and I think they should have given up eons ago.
Nobody cares enough about hearing what they do..if they can't get paid.
Music is pretty good like that.... it tells you pretty quickly if anyone is listening.

The point about promoters should promote is true............ but then bands complain that they don't do anything..forgetting that
they have that responsibility as well.

[TimR]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1390898335' post='2350916']


...

This is NOT a great time to be a working professional musician with a family, and being a professional musician is NOT a grown-up job IMHO.

I genuinely mean no offence to anyone on Basschat in saying this, and particularly not to any professional musicians. I'm not criticising, I'm actually sympathising.
[/quote]

Whoa! Be careful there. You mean playing in a band on a Saturday night in a pub is not a grown up job.

All the professional musicians I know work full time in music. A few of them play in pub bands for fun, but none of them play in pub bands for the money.

They do sessions, teach, wedding bands, luthering, buy/sell instruments...

So going back to the plumber analogy, they don't fit a boiler once a month for £6k, they mend leaks, change washers, install washing machine, unblock sinks.

[TheRev]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1390869304' post='2350841']
He may have been shocked but did he increase his offer or just find someone else for £20 each?

[/quote]

He did, but it's only just covering our travel and accommodation costs. We only agreed because the pub will be full of a large group of people we know who are having a bit of a shindig that hight so we're hoping to clean up though merch sales.....

[chris_b]

I don't play for free. Never have. Never will.

I'm there to provide entertainment to the people the venue brings in. I don't bring an audience from "out of town". My aim is to make the people who frequent the venue happy. We are not a bunch of hobbyists, and it's a long time since I had mates who thought it was cool to hang out with a mate in a band.

I play between 120 and 150 gigs a year between Bristol and Margate and Glasgow and Brighton. Let's be realistic, how is a Surrey band going to bring many people to that spread of gigs on a weekly basis? I turn up at a gig 2 or 3 times a year and expect the promoter and the other bands to have done a good enough job in between so that the venue has a core audience. We actively promote ourselves and the name on the poster is our guarantee of a good gig. An audience will come out for us but not if they have to put up with crap bands in a crap gig for the 15 weeks between our appearances.

[TimR]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1390902312' post='2350970']
...

I turn up at a gig 2 or 3 times a year and expect the promoter and the other bands to have done a good enough job in between so that the venue has a core audience. We actively promote ourselves and the name on the poster is our guarantee of a good gig. An audience will come out for us but not if they have to put up with crap bands in a crap gig for the 15 weeks between our appearances.
[/quote]

That's pretty much how it should work.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1390902312' post='2350970']
I don't play for free. Never have. Never will.

I'm there to provide entertainment to the people the venue brings in. I don't bring an audience from "out of town". My aim is to make the people who frequent the venue happy. We are not a bunch of hobbyists, and it's a long time since I had mates who thought it was cool to hang out with a mate in a band.

I play between 120 and 150 gigs a year between Bristol and Margate and Glasgow and Brighton. Let's be realistic, how is a Surrey band going to bring many people to that spread of gigs on a weekly basis? I turn up at a gig 2 or 3 times a year and expect the promoter and the other bands to have done a good enough job in between so that the venue has a core audience. We actively promote ourselves and the name on the poster is our guarantee of a good gig. An audience will come out for us but not if they have to put up with crap bands in a crap gig for the 15 weeks between our appearances.
[/quote]

So what are you suggesting, some sort of union closed shop that only allows 'good' bands to play anywhere?

[JTUK]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1390910075' post='2351073']
So what are you suggesting, some sort of union closed shop that only allows 'good' bands to play anywhere?
[/quote]

Kind of....

[peteb]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1390910075' post='2351073']


So what are you suggesting, some sort of union closed shop that only allows 'good' bands to play anywhere?
[/quote]
If only that was possible...

[flyfisher]

Yeah, that's the trouble with freedom - people do what they like with it. At least you know where you are in a dictatorship.

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1390910075' post='2351073']


So what are you suggesting, some sort of union closed shop that only allows 'good' bands to play anywhere?
[/quote]

Not really. It's a comment in the state of music.

When venue owners are complaining that it's the bands that are the problem, the venues are the ones that should be exercising some sort of quality control.

It's all well and good packing your venue with band A's 'fans' bussed in from out of town one week, but then you can't moan when the next week no one turns up to see band B.

It's a short sighted business plan doomed from the start. Most 'hobby' musicians are very unorganised.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1390912266' post='2351115']
It's a short sighted business plan doomed from the start.
[/quote]

Perhaps. So why does it seem to still be so prevalent?

[UglyDog]

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1390832028' post='2349987']
Another point I'm in two minds about is the "STFU during performances" policy (is that notice still up at the Jazz Cafe?) - I suppose I'm hypocritical in that I'll get annoyed if someone is chatting loudly when I want to listen, but then I may well (especially after a few ales) chat to friends. I got a bollocking from a post-rock nerd for chatting to a mate I hadn't seen for ages at Sigur Ros at Brixton Academy last year
[/quote]
If the notice isn't still up in the Jazz Caff, it bloody well should be. I don't pay ten/twenty/whatever quid to see a band only to end up listening to someone behind me yakking to their mate, and it irritates the living sht out of me when it happens. With all due respect, the post-rock nerd was quite right to have a word with you -- if you wanted to talk to your mate, you should have gone to the bar or met up afterwards or something, but not during the performance. God knows it's always great to bump into a long lost pal, but there's a time and a place to catch up.

[M-Bass-M]

I see part of the problem as being that these days, your average Joe Public cares far less about new music than they used to years ago. In the venues I've played around and about Liverpool, I never got the impression that there were people in the audience who were there just to experience new bands; they were usually friends of other bands on the bill.

I'm sure the reason why there's less interest in new music probably has a lot to do with reality TV shows, and the increased availability of music on the internet. How many bands put anything they record on the internet for free download? We certainly do, and I wonder if the impact is that people download the music first and then decide if the band are worth watching. Years ago it used to be the other way around.

The other issue that I see is the false promotion and advertising that is Facebook. I can understand that Facebook promotion makes promotion cheaper, but I know myself that it's really easy to act a certain way on Facebook, but my intentions otherwise are completely different. So when a promoter thinks they have loads of people attending, the reality is massively different.

I'm not sure what you can do to encourage people to sample new music in the good old fashioned way. I think new music venues do need to take a hard look at how the structure evenings, and which bands they allow on the bill - as somebody said earlier, if 80% of bands are crap, then as a punter it's highly likely that any evening I go to will feature a load of crap bands, and very little quality.

[RhysP]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1390910075' post='2351073']
So what are you suggesting, some sort of union closed shop that only allows 'good' bands to play anywhere?
[/quote]

The scary thing in that scenario is who decides what a "good" band is?
Like it or not, a lot of the bands that draw decent crowds, certainly in University towns like Cardiff, are not what most muso types would call "good" bands.

[RhysP]

[quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1390912919' post='2351127']
If the notice isn't still up in the Jazz Caff, it bloody well should be. I don't pay ten/twenty/whatever quid to see a band only to end up listening to someone behind me yakking to their mate, and it irritates the living sht out of me when it happens. With all due respect, the post-rock nerd was quite right to have a word with you -- if you wanted to talk to your mate, you should have gone to the bar or met up afterwards or something, but not during the performance. God knows it's always great to bump into a long lost pal, but there's a time and a place to catch up.
[/quote]

Absolutely.
It seems like every gig I go to these days I have to have a go at some gobby, self-obsessed twat who thinks everybody is there to listen to him rather than the band.
I know lots of people who feel the same too, to the extent that many of them just don't even bother going to gigs anymore because of the amount of w***ers in the audience. Years ago this seemed to be primarily a London thing but now it's the same everywhere.