Dalek's handbag Roland GR bass synth

[Wotcher]

I've seen these in a couple of Bass books but never in real life. Anyone actually got one. Any good?

[AndyTravis]

Saw one in Johnny Roadhouse years ago was well beyond me at the time.

There was a lad trying it and the assistant said "ok mate, here you go - it doesn't work when it's slapped so don't" sure enough, first thing the lad trying it played? Higher Ground by RHCP.

But after that ultimately useless anecdote; I have no further experience...sorry.

[Dingus]

Avoid like the plague, unless you are thinking about forming a Sigue Sigue Sputnik tribute band.

[Wotcher]

Ha! Just about remember them. No just curious and wouldn't mind acquiring one Thanks for your responses

[Bassman68]

Brings back memories of Henry Thomas on 'Rockschool', Probably plenty of clips on Youtube?

[cytania]

Big Red X will tell you how they don't really work for MIDI at any decent speed. Can still be played as unremarkable sounding basses according to Dave Swift who collects the weird and wonderful (oh and plays in a little combo with a pianist called Jools Holland).

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]Sigue Sigue Sputnik actually used the guitar version (which did work reasonably well) to trigger MIDI bass sounds, hence their distinctive sound.[/color][/font]

Edited February 2, 2014 by cytania

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='cytania' timestamp='1391362763' post='2356214']
Can still be played as unremarkable sounding basses according to Dave Swift who collects the weird and wonderful (oh and plays in a little combo with a pianist called Jools Holland).
[/quote]
Is it good for boogie woogie?

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1391347857' post='2356023']
Avoid like the plague, unless you are thinking about forming a Sigue Sigue Sputnik tribute band.
[/quote]

Quality band.

[TheGreek]

I remember seeing a young kid (about 8) playing some amazing stuff on one at a guitar fair many years ago (was it at The Barbican??) He was accompanied by, what I assumed was, his brother on a Simmonds drumkit - both could play!!!

Remember it is 80s technology...

[BigRedX]

[quote name='cytania' timestamp='1391362763' post='2356214']
Big Red X will tell you how they don't really work for MIDI at any decent speed. Can still be played as unremarkable sounding basses according to Dave Swift who collects the weird and wonderful (oh and plays in a little combo with a pianist called Jools Holland).

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]Sigue Sigue Sputnik actually used the guitar version (which did work reasonably well) to trigger MIDI bass sounds, hence their distinctive sound.[/color][/font]
[/quote]

The problem is the latency between playing the note and the synth detecting the pitch. Using modern technology you can get this down to 1.5 cycles. With the 80s technology in the GR bass it will be quite a bit more. The lower the note the longer it takes to produce sufficient wave cycles for the synth to detect what note it should be. That's why Sigue Sigue Sputnik used the guitar version because if the strings were an octave higher the notes would be detected twice as fast and then the synth sounds were transposed back down an octave to be suitably bassy. Even then Tony James says he still had to learn how to play slightly ahead of the beat in order for the bass parts to be tight enough with the rest of the band.

Plus you have to modify your playing technique to be super clean and accurate - no matter how good you think your playing is right now the GR will show up every fluffed and ghost note.

[Johnm93]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1391347857' post='2356023']
Avoid like the plague, unless you are thinking about forming a Sigue Sigue Sputnik tribute band.
[/quote]

Why has no-one thought of that before?!

[Skybone]

I like weird guitars, and the Roland GR808(? IIRC) is up there as being "quite cool" (even if the synth side of things never worked that well - it's still got the magnetic pickups). As an aside, I believe that the classic Roland GR's were actually made by a certain company by the name of Ibanez, which kind of makes them collectable as "classic" Ibanez (had a thing about late 70's/early 80's Ibanez for a while).

You would think that, if you did get the Roland guitar/bass for synth work, then surely, it could be possible to upgrade the hex pickup to a more modern version & interface with the modern Roland guitar synth units, which will have better processors in.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1391367359' post='2356331']
Quality band.
[/quote]

You are joking, right?

[Dingus]

[quote name='Johnm93' timestamp='1391461820' post='2357509']
Why has no-one thought of that before?!
[/quote]

Because their only notable achievement was to be a total and utter failure , both musically and commercially.

They had no real fan base at the time, so it's difficult to revive their appeal, because they had none. Their only notable achievement was that that they achieved nothing substantive , especially considering the amount of hype contrived on their behalf . Their whole raison d'etre were interested in them was that they were cynically manipulating and exploiting their public , but that trick relied on them actually having a public who took an interest in them The joke fell flat, the British public saw them for what they were,- a laughingstock with no real wit, talent or ability - and EM.I Records made fools of themselves by wasting that kind of money for no return. It was embarrassing to watch, as were the band.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Dingus

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Skybone' timestamp='1391512858' post='2357873']
I like weird guitars, and the Roland GR808(? IIRC) is up there as being "quite cool" (even if the synth side of things never worked that well - it's still got the magnetic pickups). As an aside, I believe that the classic Roland GR's were actually made by a certain company by the name of Ibanez, which kind of makes them collectable as "classic" Ibanez (had a thing about late 70's/early 80's Ibanez for a while).

You would think that, if you did get the Roland guitar/bass for synth work, then surely, it could be possible to upgrade the hex pickup to a more modern version & interface with the modern Roland guitar synth units, which will have better processors in.
[/quote]

Actually it's not the pickup that's the problem (these have barely changed from the original version form the late 70s), It's the pitch detection system in the foot controller that comes with the GR77. The great pity is that the synth part is actually rather good - it's essentially a Roland JX8P which was the successor to the Jupiter 8. It depends whether the cable that connects the bass to the foot controller is compatible with the newer pitch to MIDI systems.

In the end though pitch to MIDI on its own is a dead end. There will always be an unacceptable lag between playing a note on the bass and the detection circuitry working out what the note actually is, and the lower the note being played the longer it takes to work out what it is. That's simple physics and there's no way around that. IMO the way forward is either the Industrial Radio system which uses fret sensors to work out the pitch and the string pickups just to trigger the notes, alternatively the Roland V system which processes the actual signal from the strings and doesn't bother with trying to extract MIDI information from them.

[cytania]

There are plenty of joke bands Dingus, the sccessful ones are where the public gets the joke. A cartoon band? Terrible idea, but somehow the Gorillaz came along at the right time for people to 'get it'.

Sputnik tried hard but people had had enough of rock'n'roll swindles at that point in the 80s.

[Skybone]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1391521821' post='2358046']
Actually it's not the pickup that's the problem (these have barely changed from the original version form the late 70s), It's the pitch detection system in the foot controller that comes with the GR77. The great pity is that the synth part is actually rather good - it's essentially a Roland JX8P which was the successor to the Jupiter 8. It depends whether the cable that connects the bass to the foot controller is compatible with the newer pitch to MIDI systems.

In the end though pitch to MIDI on its own is a dead end. There will always be an unacceptable lag between playing a note on the bass and the detection circuitry working out what the note actually is, and the lower the note being played the longer it takes to work out what it is. That's simple physics and there's no way around that. IMO the way forward is either the Industrial Radio system which uses fret sensors to work out the pitch and the string pickups just to trigger the notes, alternatively the Roland V system which processes the actual signal from the strings and doesn't bother with trying to extract MIDI information from them.
[/quote]

It was the current Roland V system and current hex pickup system I meant (VG99/GR55 & GK3). Obviously, you'd loose that "analogue" synth "feel" from those older systems, as the current ones are purely digital of course, but surely they do have analogue synth patches/simulations?

[Dingus]

[quote name='cytania' timestamp='1391525325' post='2358128']
There are plenty of joke bands Dingus, the sccessful ones are where the public gets the joke. A cartoon band? Terrible idea, but somehow the Gorillaz came along at the right time for people to 'get it'.

Sputnik tried hard but people had had enough of rock'n'roll swindles at that point in the 80s.
[/quote]

Sputnik's mistake ( apart from forming in the first place) they was that they tried to sell the supposedly perverse idea that the joke was going to be on their public. What they failed to take into account was that the public wasn't interested in them. They had nothing sufficiently alluring about them to attract people to their cause, and no one handed over their money except the dullards at the record company who paid their advance ( which probably got spent on hairspray and one of these Roland synth efforts). They tried so hard to be shocking and controversial , but had nothing shocking or controversial to say except " We don't really care about the music, we just want your money ". No one was shocked, it got old very quickly, no one paid them much attention, and they went out with a whimper. They were neither clever,funny nor talented.

The crucial difference with Gorillaz is that they may have used an animated facade, but there was real and substantial musical content behind the graphics.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Dingus

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1391520072' post='2358014']
You are joking, right?
[/quote]

Not at all, I loved Sigue Sigue Sputnik. Never got to see them live unfortunately, but was invited a couple of times to "secret gigs". Like a crazy-fool I never went.

[cytania]

Think you put your finger on it Dingus, Sputnik may have had a superficial thrill but ultimately they didn't have much to say. I was reminded of the Manic Street Preachers first TOTP appearance by Mastermind last week (I didn't get one question, some fan me); Mister Bradfield wore a balaclava and staid viewers' knees jerked, 'Terrorist' they cried. Of course the Manics music has guts and message, so the pose worked. Sputnik on the other hand...

Slade are a joke band. First they tried the 'bovver boys' gag and nobody got the joke. Then they tried whiskers, mirror hats, hemi-fringes and glitter robes and BINGO. Same music but a different joke (and I love Slade).

Never been moved by the Gorillaz' music, but I have to acknowledge that Damon came up with the carton band thing at exactly the right time. Tapped the zeitgeist funny bone. Phenomenally successful.

Edited February 4, 2014 by cytania

[Wotcher]

And a quick trawl across the net shows none for sale anywhere. So nobody's got want they want to part company with. Not even Tony J?

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='cytania' timestamp='1391541845' post='2358416']
Think you put your finger on it Dingus, Sputnik may have had a superficial thrill but ultimately they didn't have much to say. I was reminded of the Manic Street Preachers first TOTP appearance by Mastermind last week (I didn't get one question, some fan me); Mister Bradfield wore a balaclava and staid viewers' knees jerked, 'Terrorist' they cried. Of course the Manics music has guts and message, so the pose worked.
[/quote]
Didn't work for me. In fact mentioning them in the same sentence with the Manic Street Preachers makes Sigue Sigue Sputnik slightly more credible though i wouldn't waste too much of my time listening to either band.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Wotcher' timestamp='1391557093' post='2358674']
And a quick trawl across the net shows none for sale anywhere. So nobody's got want they want to part company with. Not even Tony J?
[/quote]

Is it actually the GR77 you want or will any bass with individual string pickups connected to the correct multiway output for driving a MIDI converter or V-system do?

[Wotcher]

Yes definitely the gr 77.

[BigRedX]

If you are just looking for the bass and not the GR77B foot controller/synth as well then if you are prepared to wait there are some bargains to be had.

Things to bear in mind:

As other have said, on its own the bass is an interesting looking but rather ordinary sounding instrument.

Most of the controls are for use with the synth part of the instrument. IIRC all you get for the normal pickups is volume and passive tone.

If you want to use it with a more modern pitch to MIDI system or a Roland V-system, you'll need to get a special lead made up. The GR77 uses a different connector to the later interfaces. Not all the synth controls on the bass may work with other interfaces.

If you do decide to get the bass and its foot controller/synth together make sure that everything is in working order and the multi-way lead to connect the two is supplied and working. Some of 80s synth electronic components are now out of production and getting working ones can be difficult and expensive. A non-working example may prove to be very expensive to repair.

Good luck!