PAT testing

[malcolm.mcintyre]

In addition to the amps, my band has hundreds of mains leads and extension leads which is a costly chore each year as more venues demand PAT testing.
So, I looked into this and it seems that in the UK there is no required level of qualification or training for PAT testing or certification. Anyone can do it if they feel competent. There are loads of cheap s/h PAT testing devices on e-bay.
I thought I might start doing our own gear and just stickering it all up myself.
Any thoughts.

[oggiesnr]

"The Electricity at Work regulations of 1989 simply state that inspecting and testing must be carried out by a competent person, however does not mention a benchmark for competency. It has become accepted practice, however, for individuals operating as PAT Testers to hold a 2377–22 City and Guilds qualification. PAT Testers in the UK do not need to be electricians or have a background in the electrical industry."

The key word is "competent". You will also be assuming the risk for the equipment you test, pass something that should have failed and have an electrical accident and you'll be on the hook for it.

The course isn't expensive (couple of hundred quid or thereabouts) and I'd suggest that one of you is going to have to do it. You'll also need to talk to your insurers about them assuming the risk (unless you want to put everything you own on the line). I realise that the chances of something going wrong are small but I suspect we all have horrror stories of things going electrically pear shaped!

Steve

[xilddx]

You DO need training to competently PAT test and be legal doing so. But refresher training is not necessary as long as you retain your competence with regular testing. We're talking removable electrical cables here, not safety testing your amp or other equipment which requires more training and expertise. Your best bet is to visually inspect your cables and equipment before use. A venue may ask to see your actual PAT records, not just a label on the kit.

I'd probably recommend testing every year for regularly used cables, it's about risk assessment, the regulations are woolly about intervals. If your cables are in good condition and have moulded plugs with the correct fuses, you should be ok. But remember that fake labels could get you and the venue into trouble if there's a fire, both legally and for insurance reasons. You both have duties and liabilities under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005.

Hope that helps a bit.

[Leonard Smalls]

The Portable Appliance Testing Course is pretty easy for anyone with even a hint of a brain, but will cost at least £200. (though when I was doing my Electrical Inspecting and Testing Course the lecturer told us about a chap who'd failed the PAT course and tried to sue; he lost)
A decent [url=http://www.pat-testers.co.uk/pat-testers-3/kewtech-kt71-24]TESTER[/url] that will do most equipment (including IT type stuff inc digital rack kit) will set you back around £300.
So if you think you'll have getting on for £500 worth of testing done it's worthwhile - bearing in mind you can get yourself a sideline as a tester as well!

[TimR]

I had a local electrician do ours was less than £20.00.

I would just PAT the cables you regularly use plus a few spares and 'retire' the others.

I found I was taking huge cases of gear to gigs that I never used. The PAT kind of bought this to my attention.

Edited February 4, 2014 by TimR

[dannybuoy]

Don't cables only need to be PAT tested if they are a certain age?

I worked at a company once where the IT guy claimed it was cheaper to bin our old cables and buy new ones than it was to get them PAT tested!

[deepbass5]

As I own most of the Band gear - PA and Lighting as well as my Bass gear, and we run the band, Public Liability insurance and PAT testing is something that falls to me. But I am a qualified Spark although not working as one, so the decision was easy Buy my own PAT tester about £250 the basic one is OK just says Pass or failed and indicates If an earth fault and continuety etc. But as stated above the responsibility comes from also visual examination of the lead, plug top, fuse etc.
You are assessing its ability to do the job safley for another year. I say year but a competant person would also be able to make a judgement and say 3 years. e.g. the extenion lead under your desk at work may not go anywhere for five years. So will not be exposed to mechanical stress or overloading. Band gear takes a real hammering and I am suprised at how quick things deteriorate. So You can do it your self ( but who is deeming you competant?) The main thing is to keep records to prove you have been regularly inspecting the item. Seward do provide a program to down load a spreadsheet, but there is nothing wrong in making up your own Excel sheet with your band name on. If you are working twice a week or more and others are packing the gear away you may need to inspect things even more frequently this would be the responsible thing to do. The main thing is that someone is responsible that understands the dangers of allowing equipment to become unsafe that may give rise to endangering other peoples lives. A competant electrician is an obvious choice.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1391502965' post='2357742']
We're talking removable electrical cables here, not safety testing your amp or other equipment which requires more training and expertise.
[/quote]

Why do they call it 'Portable Applicance Testing' if it's actually only 'mains lead testing'?

[TimR]

Because there are different tests to do on different equipment. Lights, toasters, heaters, kettles have different tests to sensitive electronics equipment.

[flyfisher]

Does the 'portable equipment' actually have to be connected though?

[KevB]

Just buy the blank stickers...

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391516532' post='2357933']
Does the 'portable equipment' actually have to be connected though?
[/quote]

Depends on what the equipment is and what you are testing.

If you have a metal cased amp then you should check that the earth in the plug is continuous to the amp case. But you use a lower setting so if it's not you don't fry the electronics.

Hence a course is best if you have no idea what you're doing or what you should be testing for.

We found an old amp that had its earth disconnected and never put back, they used to do that in the old days to prevent earth loop hums. Extremely dangerous!

Edited February 4, 2014 by TimR

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1391516877' post='2357943']
Just buy the blank stickers...
[/quote]

... and add fraud to the list of problems in the event things go wrong (or even if they haven't gone wrong but you get found out).

PAT testing is a cost of doing business just like putting diesel in the van to get to the gig (yet to see anyone advocating using red diesel as a way to save money even though it would it would save a lot more than pratting about with false PAT testing).

Steve

[TimR]

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1391518390' post='2357981']


... and add fraud to the list of problems in the event things go wrong (or even if they haven't gone wrong but you get found out).

PAT testing is a cost of doing business just like putting diesel in the van to get to the gig (yet to see anyone advocating using red diesel as a way to save money even though it would it would save a lot more than pratting about with false PAT testing).

Steve
[/quote]

and no one would die either.

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391516532' post='2357933']
Does the 'portable equipment' actually have to be connected though?
[/quote]

You should end up with two stickers and two entries in your book. One for the amp and one for the lead.

[malcolm.mcintyre]

I don't wish to imply any disrespect to properly qualified electricians, but my reading of the HSE regulations suggest that, even without ANY qualifications, testing and stickering my own gear would NOT be illegal, or even liable to any other claims. Provided I felt competent to do the checks. There is no PAT tester's exam needed.
I am not an electrician, but have a good graduate level understanding of electricity and electronics, plus plenty of DIY experience of the inadvisability of playing fast and loose with the mains. The PAT test procedures appear pretty easy to understand and carry out. The battery operated PAT test units seem to do everything band gear requires.
PAT tests aside, we are probably still liable to some degree if something goes wrong and we were the one who sets up the PA and hands a mic to a clueless backing vocalist?
I absolutely do not want to go down the route of false pass stickers, but it still seems that anyone can decide whether they feel able to do their own tests and still be within the law.

[flyfisher]

@TimR

I understand all that. It was xilddx's comment that confused me.

Oggiesnr is right that PAT testing is just a cost of 'doing business' and there's no arguing against it really, but there comes to a point where the cost of doing business, both the cost and hassle, eventually becomes more trouble than it's worth. Camels and straws and all that.

Thankfully, we've never been asked for PAT certificates. Do any bands ever ask to see the venue's certificate of electrical safety or the PA system certification? After all, it's all very well to check your own gear for, say, earth continuity, but how do you know the venue wiring is providing an earth connection. Where does it all end?

Edited February 4, 2014 by flyfisher

[malcolm.mcintyre]

I don't wish to imply any disrespect to properly qualified electricians, but my reading of the HSE regulations suggest that, even without ANY qualifications, testing and stickering my own gear would NOT be illegal, or even liable to any other claims. Provided I felt competent to do the checks. There is no PAT tester's exam needed.
I am not an electrician, but have a good graduate level understanding of electricity and electronics, plus plenty of DIY experience of the inadvisability of playing fast and loose with the mains. The PAT test procedures appear pretty easy to understand and carry out. The battery operated PAT test units seem to do everything band gear requires.
PAT tests aside, we are probably still liable to some degree if something goes wrong and we were the one who sets up the PA and hands a mic to a clueless backing vocalist?
I absolutely do not want to go down the route of false pass stickers, but it still seems that anyone can decide whether they feel able to do their own tests and still be within the law.

[malcolm.mcintyre]

Oops, double post in error probably doesn't inspire much confidence in MY competence

[malcolm.mcintyre]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391519371' post='2357997']
@TimR

I understand all that. It was xilddx's comment that confused me.

Oggiesnr is right that PAT testing is just a cost of 'doing business' and there's no arguing against it really, but there comes to a point where the cost of doing business, both the cost and hassle, eventually becomes more trouble than it's worth. Camels and straws and all that.

Thankfully, we've never been asked for PAT certificates. Do any bands ever ask to see the venue's certificate of electrical safety or the PA system certification? After all, it's all very well to check your own gear for, say, earth continuity, but how do you know the venue wiring is providing an earth connection. Where does it all end?
[/quote]

We ALWAYS test the venue's sockets

[xilddx]

[quote name='malcolm.mcintyre' timestamp='1391519714' post='2358005']
I don't wish to imply any disrespect to properly qualified electricians, but my reading of the HSE regulations suggest that, even without ANY qualifications, testing and stickering my own gear would NOT be illegal, or even liable to any other claims. Provided I felt competent to do the checks. There is no PAT tester's exam needed.
I am not an electrician, but have a good graduate level understanding of electricity and electronics, plus plenty of DIY experience of the inadvisability of playing fast and loose with the mains. The PAT test procedures appear pretty easy to understand and carry out. The battery operated PAT test units seem to do everything band gear requires.
PAT tests aside, we are probably still liable to some degree if something goes wrong and we were the one who sets up the PA and hands a mic to a clueless backing vocalist?
I absolutely do not want to go down the route of false pass stickers, but it still seems that anyone can decide whether they feel able to do their own tests and still be within the law.
[/quote]how would you prove your competence in court?

[bridge]

I did an 'online' exam, quiet detailed, and quite legal! gives you a very good idea, and a certificate. I guess that would qualify you in a court as being competent. (Then sold all my PAT equipment to fund a new amp so waste of time really)!!!!

[KevB]

So on the safety side alone, rather than contractual obligation, how many here PAT test every electrical item in their house very interval that HSE rules require?

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391519371' post='2357997']
@TimR

I understand all that. It was xilddx's comment that confused me.

Oggiesnr is right that PAT testing is just a cost of 'doing business' and there's no arguing against it really, but there comes to a point where the cost of doing business, both the cost and hassle, eventually becomes more trouble than it's worth. Camels and straws and all that.

Thankfully, we've never been asked for PAT certificates. Do any bands ever ask to see the venue's certificate of electrical safety or the PA system certification? After all, it's all very well to check your own gear for, say, earth continuity, but how do you know the venue wiring is providing an earth connection. Where does it all end?
[/quote]

It's not my legal responsibility to check someone else's equipment. It's their responsibility as owner of a premises where the public will be present to comply with the law.

It's my responsibility to make sure that equipment I own and operate complies.

If you find a pub with dodgy electrics, report them to your local environmental health or even the HSE.

You don't need fake labels, just buy the real ones.

So long as your indemnity insurance covers your testing you'll be fine.

[TimR]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1391523438' post='2358084']
So on the safety side alone, rather than contractual obligation, how many here PAT test every electrical item in their house very interval that HSE rules require?
[/quote]

There is no interval specified.