PAT testing

[KevB]

So you PAT test something once and then assume it will remain in that condition forever? At work we have a system where testing is done annually on most items except computer related which are only done every 2 years. I assumed that was some sort of legal requirement but maybe not then.

[TimR]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1391524027' post='2358095']
So you PAT test something once and then assume it will remain in that condition forever? At work we have a system where testing is done annually on most items except computer related which are only done every 2 years. I assumed that was some sort of legal requirement but maybe not then.
[/quote]

Your work will have written a policy that states when they are going to test. They must then follow the policy they have written. It's a practicality thing. If you have 1 PC in a small office that never moves are you going to ever PAT test it? Why? You'll buy a new one before the old one become dangerous. Just write in your policy PC changed every three years and visual check every 6months. Job done.

If you're on tour gigging nearly every night for a year in a different venue you'll have additional testing regime put in place that includes visually examining cables every week. No point in annual testing if a lot of the leads will be dead inside a month.

Edited February 4, 2014 by TimR

[KevB]

So anyone can just make up their own policy as regards testing and in the event of an incident it is then up to the courts to decide if the policy that someone has invented was proper for the work they were carryng out? I thought there would be more formal guidelines than this.

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1391523498' post='2358086']

So long as your indemnity insurance covers your testing you'll be fine.

[/quote]

This. Does it? Have you checked?

Steve

[wateroftyne]

The point of PAT testing is wooly at best, and at worst it's a money-printing machine.

[TimR]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1391524874' post='2358117']
So anyone can just make up their own policy as regards testing and in the event of an incident it is then up to the courts to decide if the policy that someone has invented was proper for the work they were carryng out? I thought there would be more formal guidelines than this.
[/quote]

No the person 'making up' their own policy will have a full understanding of their own equipment and what is in the Regulations.

The court will use the regulations to decide if your policy was adequate.

So feel free to do your own testing and put your own stickers on. It's pretty straightforward isn't it?

Edited February 4, 2014 by TimR

[KevB]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1391525235' post='2358124'] The point of PAT testing is wooly at best, and at worst it's a money-printing machine. [/quote]
I agree

[xilddx]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1391523438' post='2358084']
So on the safety side alone, rather than contractual obligation, how many here PAT test every electrical item in their house very interval that HSE rules require?
[/quote]
Unless you are working at home you don't have to. It's the Health and Safety at WORK Act. They are not HSE rules, they are regulations, legal requirements.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1391521928' post='2358048']
how would you prove your competence in court?
[/quote]

Call an expert witness in the field of PAT testing into the dock, explain in detail the testing process you've carried out on your own equipment and the test equipment you've used and ask the expert witness to confirm that you have carried out your testing in a competent manner. Easy.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1391523498' post='2358086']
It's not my legal responsibility to check someone else's equipment. It's their responsibility as owner of a premises where the public will be present to comply with the law.
[/quote]

Really? I thought everyone has a duty of care for their own actions? Besides, who cares whose faull it is if you electrocute yourself by plugging into a faulty PA or mains socket. I suppose it'll give your family someone to blame, but it won't help you will it?


[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1391523498' post='2358086']
It's my responsibility to make sure that equipment I own and operate complies.
[/quote]

So how can you be sure your equipment complies as soon as you plug it into an unknown mains socket or PA? Again, it might be someone else's responsibility but shouldn't we be more concerned with the danger rather than the blame?


Yes, these are daft and extreme examples, but that's how daft and extreme these things get when examined in minute detail and we embrace a blame culture along with associated liabilities.

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391532359' post='2358249']
Call an expert witness in the field of PAT testing into the dock, explain in detail the testing process you've carried out on your own equipment and the test equipment you've used and ask the expert witness to confirm that you have carried out your testing in a competent manner. Easy.
[/quote]

Q1 From the opposing brief "If you were employing someone to work for your firm what qualifications and experience would you expect them to have?"
Q2 "Have you observed the defendant working?"

Steve

[flyfisher]

Objection, your honour. Hypothetical question and not relevant to this case. We're discussing actual competence, not paper qualifications.

Objection your honour. Irrelevant question. We don't observe the jury in their deliberations but we trust them to do what we ask of them based on their competence, otherwise everyone would require to be watched over while doing their jobs. I see no other Judges in this court observing your honour, though I don't doubt your competence.

(Court is now adjourned while the Judge has a quiet word with me )

[xilddx]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1391524874' post='2358117']
So anyone can just make up their own policy as regards testing and in the event of an incident it is then up to the courts to decide if the policy that someone has invented was proper for the work they were carryng out? I thought there would be more formal guidelines than this.
[/quote]

Policy should be based upon legal requirements. Formal guidelines can be found here http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm and here http://www.hse.gov.uk/event-safety/electrical-safety.htm

[xilddx]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391536744' post='2358311']
Objection, your honour. Hypothetical question and not relevant to this case. We're discussing actual competence, not paper qualifications.

Objection your honour. Irrelevant question. We don't observe the jury in their deliberations but we trust them to do what we ask of them based on their competence, otherwise everyone would require to be watched over while doing their jobs. I see no other Judges in this court observing your honour, though I don't doubt your competence.

(Court is now adjourned while the Judge has a quiet word with me )
[/quote]

Competence requirements and assessment should be proportionate to the foreseeable risk. For portable appliance testing, training, experience and evidence of 'keeping one's hand in' through regular portable appliance testing would be required, and ensuring testing equipment is calibrated and stored and maintained according to the manufacturer's recommendations.

The level of competence required should be proportionate to the hazards and risks rising from the equipment. Testing mains cables is quite simple, testing portable computers less so, testing fixed IT installations can also fall under PAT requirements.

In terms of periodicity, that is also dependent on the hazards and assessment of risk. Normal office portable appliances like desk fans, heaters, etc can be every 2 years, more active equipment like power tools may well require more frequent testing, fixed portable equipment installations should be normally tested on installation and then every five years. None of this obviates the need for regular visual inspection for damage.

If you are using portable appliances at a venue, you have legal duties to take reasonable care of your own and others' safety and health, as do those responsible for safety at the venue.

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391532869' post='2358258']


Really? I thought everyone has a duty of care for their own actions? Besides, who cares whose faull it is if you electrocute yourself by plugging into a faulty PA or mains socket. I suppose it'll give your family someone to blame, but it won't help you will it?




So how can you be sure your equipment complies as soon as you plug it into an unknown mains socket or PA? Again, it might be someone else's responsibility but shouldn't we be more concerned with the danger rather than the blame?


Yes, these are daft and extreme examples, but that's how daft and extreme these things get when examined in minute detail and we embrace a blame culture along with associated liabilities.
[/quote]

As Nigel says. It is reasonable to expect a wall socket in a place of work, where employees or contractors are likely to be using it, to be correctly wired and periodically tested.

How many of us inspect the kitchens in a restaurant before we eat there?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1391539237' post='2358358']
How many of us inspect the kitchens in a restaurant before we eat there?
[/quote]

Depends on the restaurant. I've had a chef insist on showing me around his kitchen.

As I've said before, it's pretty much impossible to argue about any of these things on safety grounds, or about the extra requirements that will be required in five years time, and probably even more after that.

So, given that it's all eminently sensible, it's ironic how the knee-jerk reaction of most people is that it's all just more red tape and an excuse for making money. it's doesn;t seem as if there's much popular support for it all. Odd really.



[size=2]Edited to correctly attribute the quotation[/size]

Edited February 4, 2014 by flyfisher

[UglyDog]

My keys player is a competent/trained/fully equipped PATing person.
Win.

[oggiesnr]

[quote name='UglyDog' timestamp='1391540117' post='2358390']
My keys player is a [i]competent/trained/fully equipped PATing person[/i].
Win.
[/quote]

Yup, definite win there

Steve

[TimR]

Unfortunately our last keys player wasn't. He turned up to a gig set up and switched on.

There's a huge crackling noise from his amp and we all turn to look at him. "Sorry, it's ok, I'll just keep my foot on the plug." I opened it up and the screws holding the wires in the pins were all loose. He could see nothing wrong with it being like that!

The drummer in one band turned his fan on causing a massive hum on the PA. Turns out his rabbit had chewed through all the insulation on his extension lead. It was ok though because he had 'mended' it by wrapping all the cores with insulation tape.

Then there's the example above with our missing earth on the PA.

PAT seems a simple and easy low cost way of preventing whole bands of people like that from turning up at your venue. And they do exist, believe me.

[xilddx]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391539683' post='2358376']


Depends on the restaurant. I've had a chef insist on showing me around his kitchen.

As I've said before, it's pretty much impossible to argue about any of these things on safety grounds, or about the extra requirements that will be required in five years time, and probably even more after that.

So, given that it's all eminently sensible, it's ironic how the knee-jerk reaction of most people is that it's all just more red tape and an excuse for making money. it's doesn;t seem as if there's much popular support for it all. Odd really.
[/quote]
That quote about kitchens ain't one from me mate.

Most people's knee jerk reactions that it's red tape and a money making opportunity are normally based on bullshit. But some contractors do take the piss by giving people wrong information so they can increase work.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1391545165' post='2358477']
Most people's knee jerk reactions that it's red tape and a money making opportunity are normally based on bullshit.[/quote]
Yep. See below.
[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1391545165' post='2358477']
But some contractors do take the piss by giving people wrong information so they can increase work.
[/quote]
Yep. See above.

[xilddx]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1391545312' post='2358478']
Yep. See below.

Yep. See above.
[/quote]

It's not a conflicting statement old bean.

[skankdelvar]

Just passed my City And Guilds Millinery Part II ([b]7716-55)[/b], so if anyone wants their hat testing send me a PM.

[grandad]

Hello all.

I developed & ran the PAT course at my college many years ago, before C&G brought out their version, (which I now recommend). I've trained all sorts, both electrically qualified & lay people, male & female. I've also tested hundreds of items of equipment in all sorts of working environments.

Please believe me when I say it is most definitely worth doing. I won't go into the horror stories I found but only say that even brand new equipment from reputable manufacturers have been found to be potentially lethal. So, I recommend full compliance with the law.

Death by electric shock or fire ain't good.

Peace & Love.

Edited February 4, 2014 by grandad

[M@23]

I just did the PAT course through work, so didn't have to pay! Good times. Going to start testing my own gear as we are more regularly getting asked by venues too. Laughable when you see the state of some of their extension leads/sockets!