lithium batteries - please don't send them without warning

[alyctes]

This is a little worrying:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25733346

This bit is definitely worrying:
"... a lot of post goes on aircraft, even within the UK, so [u]ask at the Post Office[/u] if you are sending a device with a lithium battery inside."

Please be careful and follow the rules. They are there for a reason

[flyfisher]

I read that and am worried that they'll ban lithium batteries from being carried at all, which will bugger up people taking holiday photos and videos.

Mind you, banning them in aircraft might be a problem for Boeing's Dreamliner: [url="http://gizmodo.com/did-another-boeing-dreamliner-battery-really-just-catch-1501118380"]http://gizmodo.com/d...atch-1501118380[/url]

And just wait until the roads are full of lithium batteries on wheels.

Edited February 4, 2014 by flyfisher

[Happy Jack]

Fascinating. So if you mistreat a lithium battery to a sufficient extent, it is capable of behaving other than as intended?

I wonder if the same is true of aerosol cans or bottles of home-brew beer.

Now this Pope, catholic is he?

Still, looking at the bright side, it doesn't appear that lithium batteries give you cancer, damage house prices, or encourage Romanians to come over here and sign up for our generous welfare provision.

[Diablo]

From the BBC website:

[quote]The battery lay burning in the aisle until the quick-thinking flight attendant put it out with wet towels then shoved it into a cup of water to cool it down.[/quote]

In the interests of not letting the facts get in the way of a good story, the above is total bunkum. Lipo fires are chemically fuelled and no amount of water will put it out. In fact it makes it worse as the water boils on contact with the reacting failed battery and that fires off bits of burning chemical into the air (and person trying to put it out usually) and helps to spread the fire further. The only way with this kind of fire it to contain it (fire blanket, metal box or the like) and let it burn out.

Cheers,
Rich

[timmo]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1391589191' post='2358782']
?

Still, looking at the bright side, it doesn't appear that lithium batteries damage house prices, .


[/quote] Unless you it razes your house to the ground, then it could have a detrimental effect on your properties worth

[Happy Jack]

Nah, I'd just blame the cancer-bearing Romanians and sue someone.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Diablo' timestamp='1391589209' post='2358783']
In the interests of not letting the facts get in the way of a good story, the above is total bunkum. Lipo fires are chemically fuelled and no amount of water will put it out. In fact it makes it worse as the water boils on contact with the reacting failed battery and that fires off bits of burning chemical into the air (and person trying to put it out usually) and helps to spread the fire further. The only way with this kind of fire it to contain it (fire blanket, metal box or the like) and let it burn out.
[/quote]

Doesn't sound like bunkum to me. Wrapping such a fire with a wet towel sounds like a pretty good strategy in the absence of a fire blanket. The towel will contain the burning material and the water will prevent the towel catching light by removing the heat, thus safely containing the fire while it it burns out. What's the alternative, leave it on the floor to burn through the aircraft structure?

[KiOgon]

[quote name='alyctes' timestamp='1391558009' post='2358687']
This is a little worrying:

[url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25733346"]http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-25733346[/url]

This bit is definitely worrying:
"... a lot of post goes on aircraft, even within the UK, so [u]ask at the Post Office[/u] if you are sending a device with a lithium battery inside."

Please be careful and follow the rules. They are there for a reason
[/quote]
Royal Mail issued a new booklet of prohibited & restricted items in July 2013, with particular sections on batteries of most types with specific rules for Lithium, which are banned UK & International if not within an electronic device.

Every parcel I send I'm asked what's in it & if there are any batteries.

[Diablo]

[quote]What's the alternative, leave it on the floor to burn through the aircraft structure? [/quote]

You should smother it with the nearest second class passenger.

Putting a reacting lipo battery in water is like throwing water onto a chip pan fire. The water boils, expands outwards and takes the burning chemical mess with it, often burning the individual who decided to put said fire out with water in the first place. I fly high performance model aircraft and there are plenty of incidences of hapless and/or unlucky people having bone deep burns.

[flyfisher]

I didn't read the report that way. They covered it in a towel first and used water to cool things down. I agree with your point about just throwing water onto things, but even a chip pan fire can be contained by covering with a damp cloth.

Or so I thought.
http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/chipweek.asp

Seems that the current official advice for dealing with chip pan fires is to just get out of the house, call the fire brigade and watch your house burn down, instead of the previous advice to turn off the heat and cover the pans with a wet cloth (if possible to do so safely of course).

Hmm. More HSE nonsense? Someone sued the Fire Service about that earlier advice did they? I sometimes wonder why fire extinguishers are provided at all when all the advice is to just run away.

Anyway, in an aircraft you can hardly just 'get out' so something has to be done and a damp cloth seems like a pretty good emergency measure to me. I wonder what the official training for airline staff advises?

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391603374' post='2359010']
...

Seems that the current official advice for dealing with chip pan fires is to just get out of the house, call the fire brigade and watch your house burn down, instead of the previous advice to turn off the heat and cover the pans with a wet cloth (if possible to do so safely of course).

Hmm. More HSE nonsense? Someone sued the Fire Service about that earlier advice did they? I sometimes wonder why fire extinguishers are provided at all when all the advice is to just run away.

...
[/quote]

It doesn't say not to use a fire blanket.

You shouldn't use a fire extinguisher unless you have been trained to use one. I've been trained and there are lots of things to consider that are not immediately obvious to the untrained eye. The first one being burns from CO2 but there are others.

[flyfisher]

You're right. But it doesn't say to do anything to tackle the fire, except to turn off the heat if possible.

Once upon a time they would give advice about how to actually tackle a fire, now they just say get out. Of course, that's good advice in absolute terms, which is why I've said before that these things can't be argued against.

My point is not about the advice they do give, it's about the advice they don't give because people are increasingly treated as not being able to do anything for themselves without the appropriate training. Well, guess what, the vast majority of people are not 'trained' to use a fire extinguisher, so why even bother to provide them? Just follow 'professional' advice and simply get away from any fire, call the fire brigade and watch the building burn down before they get there.

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391618203' post='2359308']
You're right. But it doesn't say to do anything to tackle the fire, except to turn off the heat if possible.

Once upon a time they would give advice about how to actually tackle a fire, now they just say get out. Of course, that's good advice in absolute terms, which is why I've said before that these things can't be argued against.

My point is not about the advice they do give, it's about the advice they don't give because people are increasingly treated as not being able to do anything for themselves without the appropriate training. Well, guess what, the vast majority of people are not 'trained' to use a fire extinguisher, so why even bother to provide them? Just follow 'professional' advice and simply get away from any fire, call the fire brigade and watch the building burn down before they get there.
[/quote]

We have at least 4 wardens per floor, all trained. That's about 120people in a building with 8000 people. I would rather see 8000 people getting out rather than a bunch of them trying to work out how to use a fire extinguisher.

Most people nowadays have gas fires at home, Bonfires are generally outlawed. I'm guessing most people are no longer confident around fire and see it as dangerous rather than a tool.

[flyfisher]

Bonfires are not outlawed at all, never mind generally: https://www.gov.uk/garden-bonfires-rules

Chip pan fires are not reliant on naked flames.

Most people may no longer be confident around fire, but that's hardly surprising with all the rules and regulations (and misconceptions). It's symptomatic of a bigger problem though.

[bumnote]

[quote name='Diablo' timestamp='1391602304' post='2358993']
You should smother it with the nearest second class passenger.

I fly high performance model aircraft and there are plenty of incidences of hapless and/or unlucky people having bone deep burns.
[/quote]

Im glad Im not the only boy with toys

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391620981' post='2359362']
Bonfires are not outlawed at all, never mind generally: https://www.gov.uk/garden-bonfires-rules

Chip pan fires are not reliant on naked flames.

Most people may no longer be confident around fire, but that's hardly surprising with all the rules and regulations (and misconceptions). It's symptomatic of a bigger problem though.
[/quote]

What rules and regulations? We don't use fire. That's not a regulation, it's a way of life.

I'm confident around fire, I've spent enough years building and cooking on it to get close to it and pick up burning objects. We could spend time teaching our kids how to do this, but unless they're out doing it regularly there are other more important life skills for them to learn that are more relevant to the world we now live in.

In the BBC article they point out that airline staff are now trained to deal with those sorts of fires.

We can't all know everything.

Edited February 5, 2014 by TimR

[flyfisher]

Yep, another reason to sit back, do nothing and let a 'competent person' deal with it all.

You're right that we can't all know everything, but we could all be a bit more aware of what we do and don't know instead of just assume we're incompetent (or worse, be told we are) unless we have a certificate that says otherwise.

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391627440' post='2359447']
Yep, another reason to sit back, do nothing and let a 'competent person' deal with it all.

You're right that we can't all know everything, but we could all be a bit more aware of what we do and don't know instead of just assume we're incompetent (or worse, be told we are) unless we have a certificate that says otherwise.
[/quote]

Unfortunately until someone can demonstrate they're competent you have to assume they're not. That's always been the case since time began.

[essexbasscat]

Been a matter of common sense for years that you keep naked batteries away from other metallic objects, as they can become dangerously hot, Lithium batteries or otherwise, including your everyday duracell etc.

Nothing new about that

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1391627687' post='2359457']
Unfortunately until someone can demonstrate they're competent you have to assume they're not. That's always been the case since time began.
[/quote]

Arrgghh! Yes, but you should be able to assess your own competence! or do you need a certificate for that?

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1391629060' post='2359492']


Arrgghh! Yes, but you should be able to assess your own competence! or do you need a certificate for that?
[/quote]

Absolutely. Just get in a car and drive no need for a test. That's what we used to do in the old days before all this competency nonesense.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1391629416' post='2359504']
Absolutely. Just get in a car and drive no need for a test. That's what we used to do in the old days before all this competency nonesense.
[/quote]

Absolutely, as indeed I did, and very safely too, until I passed my driving test. Yes, I knew it was prohibited, and un-insured, so I drove with even more due care and attention (if that's possible...). No, not recommended, and not to be imitated, but yes, I was competent well before having the licence to show for it.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1391629416' post='2359504']
Absolutely. Just get in a car and drive no need for a test. That's what we used to do in the old days before all this competency nonesense.
[/quote]

Well, funny you should say that but my grandfather never took a driving test but was issued a licence and drove all his life without any problems to my knowledge.

And I was able to correctly assess my own driving competence by deciding I only needed two lessons before passing my driving test first time. Of course, I was also deemed to be competent enough to tow a trailer back then, which I have regularly done ever since, but for some reason kids today are not as competent as I was so they now have to take a separate test for towing.

Slippery slope . . . . .

[TimR]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1391629912' post='2359520']


Absolutely, as indeed I did, and very safely too, until I passed my driving test. Yes, I knew it was prohibited, and un-insured, so I drove with even more due care and attention (if that's possible...). No, not recommended, and not to be imitated, but yes, I was competent well before having the licence to show for it.
[/quote]

And how would you demonstrate that competency to a policeman, insurance company or prospective employer?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1391630170' post='2359523']
And how would you demonstrate that competency to a policeman, insurance company or prospective employer?
[/quote]

I'd be inspired to show them a clean pair of heels..!

I've not recounted the fines I had to pay for my misdeeds, I was merely showing, albeit blithly, that it's not the certificate that contains the competence, but the person. The demonstration of that competence can take several forms, including on-the-spot tests, or attestation from peers; there are more. Not to say that certification is not a good idea, merely that it's not the be-all and end-all, in this domain as in others.