Pentotonic Blues

[timmo]

Assuming starting from position A. A,C,D,D#,E,G,A. Does the D# become an E flat? If so, does the E change?

[CamdenRob]

I always though pentatonic was I,II,III,V,VI ? so in A : A,B,C#,E,F#?

[timmo]

The Pentatonic Blues Scale which is a minor. I am confused as there is no flats or sharps in an A Minor scale, but the Pentotonic Blues scale seems to change that. I thought you had to flatten the fifth, but i assume it is an E flat, but if so, does the E change ?

[EliasMooseblaster]

Both are correct - timmo's referring to the "minor pentatonic + added b5" (aka "the blues scale"), CamdenRob, your example is what's normally referred to as the "major pentatonic."

Edit: just seen Timmo's follow up. The original "minor pentatonic" is just A, C, D, E, G, A - all of which are notes taken from the (natural) minor scale of A. The D# / Eb has simply worked its way in over the years as a popular "blue note," which is why the scale you cite in your OP is often referred to as the "blues scale."

There may be a longer story behind its origins, but as far as I can gather it's just an extra note that jazz and blues players began to use to add colour to what they were playing. I'm sure it upsets no end of classically-trained theorists!

Edited February 6, 2014 by EliasMooseblaster

[CamdenRob]

ah I see sorry didn't realise a blues pentatonic was minor... would that be I,II,bIII,V,bVI then? whats with the bV? surlely that clashes pretty badly with the chords underneath? presumably you'd just notate it as an accidental? as it would fall outside the key of C if you played a Eb in A minor?

I've only every played with modes, never bothered to use any pentatonics.

Edited February 6, 2014 by CamdenRob

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1391686628' post='2360109']
ah I see sorry didn't realise a blues pentatonic was minor... would that be I,II,bIII,V,bVI then? whats with the bV? surlely that clashes pretty badly with the chords underneath?

I've only every played with modes, never bothered to use any pentatonics.
[/quote]

There seem to be two widely accepted "minor pentatonics." I think I, bIII, VI, V, bVII seems to be the most widely used - I only came across the I,II,bIII,V,bVI form recently.

A popular "blues scale" is like the first example, but with the extra bV between the VI and V. (Yes, prepare to draw in breath sharply!) It fits surprisingly well if you're playing blues, but then in most blues the major/minor tonality is quite ambiguous as it is!

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1391686834' post='2360114']
There seem to be two widely accepted "minor pentatonics." I think I, bIII, VI, V, bVII seems to be the most widely used - I only came across the I,II,bIII,V,bVI form recently.

A popular "blues scale" is like the first example, but with the extra bV between the VI and V. (Yes, prepare to draw in breath sharply!) It fits surprisingly well if you're playing blues, but then in most blues the major/minor tonality is quite ambiguous as it is!
[/quote]

Ah I see... Thanks for that. Always good to learn something new.

[timmo]

Now i am really confused. What is all of this I, bIII, VI, V, bVII ? Is that some different way of writing notation?

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1391686977' post='2360119']
Now i am really confused. What is all of this I, bIII, VI, V, bVII ? Is that some different way of writing notation?
[/quote]

The numerals denote intervals of the major scale.... so in C : I = C, II = D, III = E etc... so a bIII in C would be a flat third interval Eb... flat thirds found in the minor along with dorian, phrygian and locrian modes...

I just find it easier to talk about theory using intervals as then it's relevent to any key.

[Hobbayne]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1391686977' post='2360119']
Now i am really confused. What is all of this I, bIII, VI, V, bVII ? Is that some different way of writing notation?
[/quote]
They are notes of the scale.
I is the first note of the scale eg A II second note III third note etc. bIII is a flattened third eg C instead of C sharp.

[timmo]

Ahh ok. Thanks all for the replies

[Coilte]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1391686977' post='2360119']
What is all of this I, bIII, VI, V, bVII ? Is that some different way of writing notation?
[/quote]

I am not an expert on theory, but AFAIK roman numerals only refer to the
[u]chords[/u] of a given scale. Intervals are referred to as a flat 3rd.. b3...or a minor 3rd.

[PaulWarning]

I was using the minor pentotonic for years before I realised what it was, it just seemed to fit into everything I played, and it's easy to remember, up 2 frets down a string, up 2 frets etc

[Bilbo]

I don't think Blind Lemon Jefferson gave a flying f***

These blue notes are an approximation of the vocalisations of early blues singers. In truth, they were rarely either major or minor but more like a slur up or down. The transfer to conventional European notation came after the fact and the major and minor blues scales are what they are; a five note scale with a chromatic addition slipped in for effect. The D# or Eb are, as was said above, both correct. I guess it is about context really and how confusing a series os accidentals would be when you try to write things down.