roceci Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Don't know if this is the right forum but here goes... My covers/functions band has recently started performing live in earnest & I couldn't hope for a better, more talented bunch of people to work with. We've got a little way to go before the set's smooth enough to try & crack the events market (our ultimate aim, $$$) but we're pretty tight & polished as is. The only real weak link atm is our lone guitarist - he's a very talented player & a lovely guy to work with but unfortunately he doesn't have the first clue about volume & tone. His gear is top notch at least as far as his axes & rig goes (USA strat, some fancy Ibanez job & a Mesa head on a Mesa 410 cab) so there's no problem there. However in practice & more worryingly at gigs he's generally way too quiet & needs to be told to turn up. Bad enough, but he'll then typically over-compensate & go ridiculously loud, & that's before he gets into dirt territory...ouch. When he does do distortion it's always massively over-aggressive compared to what's needed (think Isley Bros' Summer Breeze with screaming metal-type sounds on the guitar breaks - not what we're after at least). He'll then ask after the rehearsal/show how his volume was & you can see that he really hasn't got a clue where he sits sonically in the mix. I realise that most of the problem is a matter of experience...god I can remember when I used to plug away with no appreciation of how my fantastically up-front racket was affecting the overall sound! So over the past month or so I've tried to encourage the guy to try to listen to the whole band & put himself in context with everything else going on. Unfortunately his eager nods don't seem to translate into understanding & I don't seem to be getting through. So, I'm wondering if anyone's got any advice on alternative ways to approach the problem, perhaps based on similar experiences. He's a delicate kid & needs to be handled gently but he does seem eager to listen & learn to the oldest fella in the band (me), I guess it's a matter of how it's laid out to him. Any pointers appreciated. I've tried searching for info but can't find anything of use :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethFlatlands Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 How about agreeing with him to get someone not in the band (soundguy, manager if you have one) to go out and check the levels front of house and make any tweaks on both his and your behalf? If they adjust your levels first (or pretend to), go back out and then adjust his then you might be able to do it stealthily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 As you say it is also a problem during rehearsals maybe you could record them. Record one song and play it back and all should be able to hear where it is wrong and be able to change what needs changing. Keep doing that until it is right. Hopefully this would help the guitarist's understanding and he'll be able to translate it to a gig situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary mac Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Yes like KB said above, get it recorded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott_LP Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 +1 on recording, even just on a mobile phone, during rehearsal. This way he'll hear what's out of place. Hope you sort it! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Sounds like his amp set-up isn't really suitable for the type of material you're playing for starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 [quote name='roceci' timestamp='1392042774' post='2363908'] he's generally way too quiet & needs to be told to turn up [/quote] sorry i dont believe you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 [quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1392048188' post='2364008'] sorry i dont believe you [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1392048184' post='2364007'] Sounds like his amp set-up isn't really suitable for the type of material you're playing for starters. [/quote] +1 For function stuff a nice 60w or less combo will give him ample volume. Decent pedals can also be a big step to level control. Our guitard uses a tc electronic g system and can do everything from funk and soul to metal on it and all without major volume fluctuations. As many have said record it and play it back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Record it - +1. Different amp, one with less wattage and less speakers - +2. Get the amp working hard, everyone will benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roceci Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Thanks for all the advice so far guys. First off, damn right his rig isn't suited to the funk & soul pop that we do. I've figured that if he knew what he was doing it'd go a long way towards mitigating that but maybe the solution is to point him in the direction of something more suitable to speed things up. Time for a link bombardment.. The third-party amp-tweaking idea might be a goer too, particularly as our sort-of manager is his dad so the potential for offence should be limited. His old man's a pretty straight-up guy who I suspect will understand & be glad to help...either that or I've got him completely wrong & we lose a guitarist & a manager in one swoop! If it's meant to be it's meant to be tho. Def worth a try tho & I'll arrange a chat with him to that end. I'm not sure how effective listening back to recordings will prove though. He knows he's got issues with his sound but just doesn't seem to be able to figure out how to solve them on the fly yet. We've got some quality video & audio coming in from a couple of gigs we've done just recently so I'll suggest eschewing a rehearsal for a playback session & see what we can achieve there but it's more about what he does after that. He'll get it eventually but I guess I'm just fishing for techniques to try & hurry the process along as he's a keeper but I'm not getting any younger! As I say thanks for the advice so far, really helpful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I agree with the many excellent suggestions above. For the work you're doing he probably needs 3 or 4 varied basic sounds plus a couple of 'signature' tones. With that in mind, how about a relatively transparent, unflavoured amp as a platform (maybe an SF Fender Twin, a Twin RI or something a bit smaller like a Deluxe Reverb RI) and a simple but quality pedalboard / multi-fx stomper to give him the tonal variety. Stick the amp up on a stand so he can hear what he's doing. After a couple of rehearsals he should be fine. If his Dad is also his roadie he'll be happy to be humping less kit around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roceci Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Haha spot on about the dad/roadie thing! I'll point him in the direction of those amps, cheers. I'm also gonna try getting him to stand far away from his amp next rehearsal, see if that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Yeah a smaller amp and a decent multi-fx will help muchly. If you're looking at events then guitar should be mic'd or DI'd through the FOH anyway. A smaller combo will help keep the onstage volume down and the FOH sound can be mixed properly by dad/sound man/manager. I've been using a Vox Cambridge 30 and a Boss ME-20 for nearly 2 years now. I've never had to have the volume higher than halfway and we've played some pretty decent stages! Decent mic, through the desk, and perfect volume every time. Set-up cost me £220 including amp stand, mini-boom for the mic and an SM-57. Mind you, it's taken me 10 years to arrive at this set-up. I've been through the 4x12 phase! Truckstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 [quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1392062019' post='2364287'] I've been using a Vox Cambridge 30 and a Boss ME-20 for nearly 2 years now. I've never had to have the volume higher than halfway and we've played some pretty decent stages! [/quote] Yes, this. Any guitarists who thinks they need more than 30 watts is a loony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Or is as metal as f***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1392062365' post='2364294'] Yes, this. Any guitarists who thinks they need more than 30 watts is a loony. [/quote] our guitarer used to gig with a vox 15w valvetronix jobbie and it was ample loud enough for average pub gig Edited February 10, 2014 by steve-bbb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Dyer Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Sack the guitarist, you're gonna have to do it at some point so best get it out of the way now, saves a lot of bother later on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
largo Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Nice suggestions, just tell him to get another amp! How many of you guys wouldn't be offended if after spending a couple of grand on an amp & speaker you were told it wasn't suitable for the band, by the guitarist of all people and to go and get yourself something more suited to the gig. I can't believe I'm saying this about a guitarist but, poor guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) [quote name='largo' timestamp='1392064675' post='2364341'] I can't believe I'm saying this about a guitarist but, poor guy. [/quote] Yes, I get the impression he's quite young, so this probably needs to be done sympathetically or he'll go into a teenage strop! I remember when I was a kid first learning the bass, I wouldn't listen to any advice and was a right know-it-all. Just like now, come to think of it... Edited February 10, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 [quote name='largo' timestamp='1392064675' post='2364341'] Nice suggestions, just tell him to get another amp! How many of you guys wouldn't be offended if after spending a couple of grand on an amp & speaker you were told it wasn't suitable for the band, by the guitarist of all people and to go and get yourself something more suited to the gig. I can't believe I'm saying this about a guitarist but, poor guy. [/quote] Yeah I think there could be a way of doing it a bit more subtly - arrange for a practice with hired amps from the rehearsal room, saying you want to try others gear, as this is likely to happen when gigging. Then sort out with the studio a more suitable amp, then all rave about how good it sounded, especially with the guys fantastic playing, and how it really brought it out. Appeal to vanity basically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 How about putting a marker on his amp controls where a bouts the Volume should sit might give him a ballpark idea of the volume he needs just use a bit of electrical tape or dry wipe marker so you don't mark his amp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 In my last band, we had mr. Guitar, who had a nice sound. He used to blah certain solos from the original.(covers band). His main problem was that he was using a boss multi effects unit. This meant that he had to keep,fiddling with it each session until he got it right. Took ages. He was nearly fired, but got the sound right at the last minute. He hadn't been in a band for ages before that. We think he used us as a stepping stone for his next project tbh. Now if he had single pedals.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mog Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Sounds like he may have a confidence issue. He's under/over compensating. I wouldn't ask him to change his amp its his choice and if he's happy using it then its nobody's business but his own . A Strat or Ibby into a Mesa can produce some of the cleanest tones out there. People forget most Mesa's are just modded Fenders. Point him in the direction of a power soak like the THD Hotplate if it gets too loud. If the band is working well he should have no problem making slight adjustments if it suits the bigger picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roceci Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 It's definitely a confidence issue. Rehearsal tomorrow night so I'll try a few of those suggestions out & report back if anyone's interested in an update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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