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The Toilet Circuit


flyfisher
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Interesting programme on Radio 4 this morning discussing small music venues and their struggle to survive. Some interesting comments about how audiences increasingly expect not to pay for live music in such venues and how even fairly established bands expect to have a large guest list, which means there is hardly any room in these small venues for paying punters anyway.

Programme page is here and it looks like it will be on iPlayer soon.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03trs7b

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It depends I suppose, I wouldn't expect to pay to see a band if they were on in a pub, unless the pub had booked and organised it as a ticketed event, but nor would I expect to walk into a function room or hall attached to the same pub when there was a band on in there for free.

If that made any sense at all!

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Well, guest lists can be a contentous thing.
You have to give the venue a chance to pay your fee so we ask them what they will provide expecting
a min of 5....( for partners ) and be happy with that. We will give them away
to a few loyal 'fans' if we have them spare and band's ppl don't take them up.

I've known bands ask for silly numbers of comps and this is the difficulty of bands transferring from pubs to ticketed events.
Their 'fans' can see them for free at the Dog and Duck so why would they want to pay £6 plus a ticket....they are the ones 'demanding' a comp
By the same token the promoter knows the band plays for pub rates in pubs and can't see what is in a fee for £750 plus......

You have to sell every show on its merits.... and cut down on the pubs if you want more than pub money.

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Further to this.... pubs will call you expensive if you quote more than their £160-180 budget.
This can be the problem with 3 piece bands who run a min of gear...
They can afford to do these places ...they don't carry lights and the P.A isn't that great, being an afterthought
for the vocals being the bit between the required gtr solos..... and so pubs think this is what they can get away with.

I understand pubs and venues being under pressure but you have to sell the difference that you think your band can give... and stick with it.
That means turning down more than a few gigs ...

I always thought the relaxing of licenses would NOT be a good thing to bands and venues in general.... as any pub can now put on gigs and there are only so many punters around for live gigs.

It also depends how you tap into a market...
£1000 party functions are out there and so are people who will pay £20 for a band... albeit a semi name band.
Those people are also the people that will pay £10 a ticket for a decent show....

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Even with 'established' bands, there is a fairly common procedure, whereby, band members will get 2, or maybe 3 free tickets, and additional tickets will cost 50%
if it's a largish venue guaranteed to be sold out, then of course, the promoter may well be a little more generous.

I don't see how the question of guest lists/complimentary tickets (call it what you will) impacts on a venues ability to survive.

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Are we talking originals or covers here? Completely different bits of the industry, no punter should ever have to pay to see a covers group or tribute singer- that should be paid for by the bar. Conversely, originals bands tend to benefit more from tickets etc as people should want to see them specifically rather than just be pleasantly surprised to find live music playing- bottom line is that from my experience originals bands BRING people to a venue, covers bands KEEP people in the venue for as long as they're playing

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[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1392129145' post='2365073']
I don't see how the question of guest lists/complimentary tickets (call it what you will) impacts on a venues ability to survive.
[/quote]

The programme suggested that it was a space thing. Many of the venues they were discussing are very small so the guestlist ends up restricting the paying punters = less revenue.

So it was claimed.

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Not sure covers bands should never charge a ticket price
It you want to play better and/or larger venues then this is an obvious route to go down.

We will play a good couple of ticketed gigs this summer as a covers band... altho we may throw in a couple of originals
this time round... and we will charge £750-1000 depending on the show we can put on...
And you wont get that from a bar....

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The problem is that there are too many pubs putting music on and people get used to not paying for it.
And with the relaxing of the license fee...so many pubs can now do it.... BAD MOVE..imo.

To me, it doesn't matter what you play.... it depends whether people will pay to see you
and bands playing for free start the rot..
If bands play for free, and people want to watch for free.... then you have pretty much bolloxed your market..

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[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1392134582' post='2365149']
The problem is that there are too many pubs putting music on and people get used to not paying for it.
And with the relaxing of the license fee...so many pubs can now do it.... BAD MOVE..imo.

To me, it doesn't matter what you play.... it depends whether people will pay to see you
and bands playing for free start the rot..
If bands play for free, and people want to watch for free.... then you have pretty much bolloxed your market..
[/quote]

...assuming, of course, that one considers it to be a 'market'. We don't all think alike. We've been here before, I seem to recall.

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This has been a discussion I'm familiar with, as to whether we want to play the smaller, more cramped venues that don't really benefit from putting on music. Some just aren't fun, so personnally I'd forfeit the gig, take the loss and not do it. My take is if it's not enjoyable, why play? Being fair though, it's not my livelihood.

Interesting topic though as I've seen a decline in live music in pubs, which is a shame. With that we're having to travel further to get good gigs. Still, less gigs is better than no gigs I suppose. :-)

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[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392132129' post='2365118']
The programme suggested that it was a space thing. Many of the venues they were discussing are very small so the guestlist ends up restricting the paying punters = less revenue.

So it was claimed.
[/quote]
OK, thanks
I've had a listen to the show now. I think Kate (couldn't make out her surname) is talking nonsense. It's highly unlikely that a promoter would put on a show where "most of the tickets were guestlist" :unsure: ... unless the promoter is (or connected with) the artist. I'd be interested in seeing a few details of that gig.

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Our band only plays for free. If we get given money (happens often enough...) we give it away. We choose the gigs we play, and only play if it's going to be enjoyable, both to us , the audience and the organisers. It's just a different stance, that's all. I was a professional drummer for long enough to know that I don't want to do things that way any more. No big deal; there are very many 'takes' on 'musician'; the scenarios are all good.

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