Black Sabbath basses

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392395334' post='2368218']
I am shocked at that.

I know his one-off pieces can command high prices, and it's not surprising either if you consider that he really the first bespoke custom guitar builder of much note in the U.K , and his guitars were the preferred choice of a generation of British glam rockers. When you think how retro instruments are in vogue nowadays and how revered that era is by various cliques of would-be hipsters, you would think John Birch's guitars would be rocketing in value and desirability.[/quote]

I think it's just the way the market kinda circulates sometimes. Around the 70s/80s they rotated between "[i]everyone[/i]" wanting vintage Fender or Gibsons for a few years & then it went to exotics or customs for a while, then back to the vintage. These days it doesn't seem to have come back to the exotics or customs. My guess is that it's because there's a lot more of all of them around at varying levels & better prices.
My bass was valued by Bonhams at £3000+, latest insurance valuation I had was £4600. I don't think I'd have a prayer of reaching either of those prices for it.

[Dingus]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1392391348' post='2368119']
This seems to be a running theme for Sabbath...didn't they end up hiring Vinnie Appice to play on [i]Mob Rules[/i] by accident? The story I've heard is that they were trying to get hold of Carmine Appice, but their manager ended up phoning the wrong Appice!
[/quote]

I haven't heard that before, but , once again, it sounds exactly like the kind of thing that would actually happen to Black Sabbath. Spinal Tap is [i]way[/i] insufficient.

[Dingus]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392395358' post='2368219']
Now now...you know I get punchy when banana necked Jaydee's are mentioned
[/quote]

You are not the only one, my friend, that is why I mentioned Geezer's remarks.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1392395754' post='2368224']
I think it's just the way the market kinda circulates sometimes. Around the 70s/80s they rotated between "[i]everyone[/i]" wanting vintage Fender or Gibsons for a few years & then it went to exotics or customs for a while, then back to the vintage. These days it doesn't seem to have come back to the exotics or customs. My guess is that it's because there's a lot more of all of them around at varying levels & better prices.
My bass was valued by Bonhams at £3000+, latest insurance valuation I had was £4600. I don't think I'd have a prayer of reaching either of those prices for it.
[/quote]

If the right rock star saw it on the right day in Andy Baxter's shop you might get something approaching those figures, maybe.

I suppose the thing about all vintage instruments is that, for the most part, much ( most, usually) of their value is completely arbitrary and notional. A vintage Fender bass, whist it sounds good, is not worth several thousand quid in terms of its' material and build quality , if you see what I mean( yes, I have got my tin hat on already... ) . Your original John Birch's have got a lot working in their favour in terms of historical association , kudos and rarity value, and not least all that there will never be any more made. Providing there is a demand, that should push the price up, but at the same time Stu, I acknowledge and admire your pragmatism in accepting that in the real world, things are worth what you can get for them.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Dingus

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392397408' post='2368251']A vintage Fender bass, whist it sounds good, is not worth several thousand quid in terms of its' material and build quality , if you see what I mean( yes, I have got my tin hat on already... ) . [/quote]

Oooo you're going straight to hell for that one, they're coming for you!



It was seeing the gigs and then this that was the clincher ................. I had to have one....................
Though It was a perfect John Birch example of his methods; said he in a feeble attempt to stop this thread hijack. John Birch was a lying sod and had nothing to do with the build of this bass - it was all JayDee while he worked for Birch. I found that out after John had died.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cIWBWunAGw

Edited February 14, 2014 by Big_Stu

[Dingus]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1392398249' post='2368271']
Oooo you're going straight to hell for that one, they're coming for you!


[/quote]

If only you were joking...

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1392398249' post='2368271']
Oooo you're going straight to hell for that one, they're coming for you!


[/quote]
Lol!

[White Cloud]

As an aside, I have been reflecting on this topic. When I saw Ozzy Osbourne live circa 1988 (ish - my memory aint what it was) at the Glasgow Barrowland Geezer Butler was on bass...what a treat that was!

On that occasion he played....a Peavey Dyna bass...and it sounded great.

[RhysP]

Geezer definitely used Rickenbackers occasionally in the late 70's - I remember an interview with him in "Beat Instrumental" where he said he was using a Rick because the truss rod went in the neck of one of his John Birch basses & that was the only back up he had with him on the tour. I've seen footage of him using a Rick too.
He also mentioned having a fretless Rick with nylon tape wound strings on it.

BC Rich Eagle basses weren't £1000 in the late 70's BTW - the shop I used to work in was one of the few UK stockists & they were around £700 in 1980 as far as I can remember. Absolutely superb instruments, as were all BC Riches at that time.

Update: Just found a price list from October 1980 - Eagle & Mockingbird bass: £699, Bich bass £999.

[Dingus]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1392416604' post='2368656']
Geezer definitely used Rickenbackers occasionally in the late 70's - I remember an interview with him in "Beat Instrumental" where he said he was using a Rick because the truss rod went in the neck of one of his John Birch basses & that was the only back up he had with him on the tour. I've seen footage of him using a Rick too.
He also mentioned having a fretless Rick with nylon tape wound strings on it.

BC Rich Eagle basses weren't £1000 in the late 70's BTW - the shop I used to work in was one of the few UK stockists & they were around £700 in 1980 as far as I can remember. Absolutely superb instruments, as were all BC Riches at that time.

Update: Just found a price list from October 1980 - Eagle & Mockingbird bass: £699, Bich bass £999.
[/quote]

£700? Then why didn't I have one ? I was only about £650 quid short of one .

According to the inflation calculator, £700 was the equivalent of £2546 today. However, such conversions are misleading as they do not take into account the amount of disposable income people have in the respective eras. Far more people have £2546 to spend on a bass in 2014 than there were people with £700 to put down on one in 1980.

I based that price( £1000) on my only point of reference, which was a very old feature in Guitarist Magazine about a vintage hot bubblegum pink B C Rich Bitch guitar that had originally belonged to the wonderfully-named Len Tuckey , who was in fact Suzi Quatro's guitarist and first husband . I seem to remember Suzy had a matching pink Bitch bass. In the article it mentioned that the original receipt was still in the case , and that the guitar had been ordered from a shop in the London, and it had cost £900 in 1979. I had figured that the basses would have been a bit more expensive. If your old price list says that the Bitch was actually a more expensive model then that explains my mistake. My sincere apologies to anyone who has overpaid for a B C Rich on the basis of my misinformation in the interim period .

That is very interesting that you worked for a B C Rich dealer at the time. Did many people order them , or did you keep stock in the shop? They were such beautiful instruments. I can distinctly remember people who didn't even play guitar noticing how amazing they looked at the time. My first recollection of them is the members of Thin Lizzy all playing them in the video for " Do Anything You Want To" , which will have been around 1979, in fact. . Then for a while you couldn't give them away, and then Slash used a Mockingbird guitar in the video for "You Could Be Mine" and the used market took off again, it seemed like .

Edited February 15, 2014 by Dingus

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392473583' post='2369151']I based that price( £1000) on my only point of reference, which was a very old feature in Guitarist Magazine about a vintage hot bubblegum pink B C Rich Bitch guitar that had originally belonged to the wonderfully-named Len Tuckey , who was in fact Suzi Quatro's guitarist and first husband . I seem to remember Suzy had a matching pink Bitch bass. In the article it mentioned that the original receipt was still in the case , and that the guitar had been ordered from a shop in the London, and it had cost £900 in 1979. I had figured that the basses would have been a bit more expensive. If your old price list says that the Bitch was actually a more expensive model then that explains my mistake. My sincere apologies to anyone who has overpaid for a B C Rich on the basis of my misinformation in the interim period .[/quote]
Just a bit more context, at around the same time Dave Hill sold his custom Superyob to Musical Exch in Brum. It was spotted by Marco Peroni of Adam's Ants shortly later and he bought it for £600!! He still has it.

[RhysP]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392473583' post='2369151']
That is very interesting that you worked for a B C Rich dealer at the time. Did many people order them , or did you keep stock in the shop? They were such beautiful instruments. I can distinctly remember people who didn't even play guitar noticing how amazing they looked at the time. My first recollection of them is the members of Thin Lizzy all playing them in the video for " Do Anything You Want To" , which will have been around 1979, in fact. . Then for a while you couldn't give them away, and then Slash used a Mockingbird guitar in the video for "You Could Be Mine" and the used market took off again, it seemed like .
[/quote]

People did order custom models but we always had them in stock too. The first time I ever went in the shop I was 15 & had never seen a BC Rich or any other high end US guitar up close. A friend of mine told me a new guitar shop had opened & they had "those weird shaped guitars you like" - of course I didn't believe him until I went in there myself & what I saw completely overwhelmed me. There were two Mockingbird standards & a Mockingbird supreme, two Biches, an Eagle supreme, a Mockingbird bass, a Bich bass & a Bich 8 string bass..... and that was before I noticed the Deans & the Hamers. They also regularly stocked basses by Manson, Pangborne, Jaydee, Alembic, Steinberger & Wal.

You can probably see why I don't have much interest in going into music shops much these days.

I started talking to the owner of the shop & he was really impressed that I knew what all these guitars were. I started helping out in the shop soon after & still helped out when I could even after I'd got a "proper" job. The shop was actually the UK distributors for BC Rich for a while in the 80s, changed location twice & finally closed when the owner decided on a change of career & went into web design.

Some of the best days of my life were spent in that shop.

[Skybone]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392473583' post='2369151']According to the inflation calculator, £700 was the equivalent of £2546 today. However, such conversions are misleading as they do not take into account the amount of disposable income people have in the respective eras. Far more people have £2546 to spend on a bass in 2014 than there were people with £700 to put down on one in 1980.[/quote]

That kind of ties in with current US built BC Rich's (the ones I've looked at anyway). They still retail for around £2,500-ish.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392473583' post='2369151']Then for a while you couldn't give them away, and then Slash used a Mockingbird guitar in the video for "You Could Be Mine" and the used market took off again, it seemed like .[/quote]

Don't forget though, at the time, late 80's/early 90's when GnR were huge, there was also demand for BC Rich's from the other "Hair Metal" bands (Poison et al all used BC's at some point), as well as all the Thrash & Death Metal bands of the same time. Messrs King, Hanneman & Araya were long time BC users at that point.

[Big_Stu]

Looking at an old thread I took part in years ago on another forum there was footage of Geezer gigging a John Birch Rick in green burst. Can't find the footage on YT as yet.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1392484758' post='2369324']
There were two Mockingbird standards & a Mockingbird supreme, two Biches, an Eagle supreme, a Mockingbird bass, a Bich bass & a Bich 8 string bass..... and that was before I noticed the Deans & the Hamers. They also regularly stocked basses by Manson, Pangborne, Jaydee, Alembic, Steinberger & Wal.

You can probably see why I don't have much interest in going into music shops much these days.

Some of the best days of my life were spent in that shop.
[/quote]
I sincerely feel your pain. I remember that era...music shops were an exciting day out.

Today music shops are generally full of Fenders, Squiers or Fender variants.......B O R I N G.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Skybone' timestamp='1392649109' post='2371039']

Don't forget though, at the time, late 80's/early 90's when GnR were huge, there was also demand for BC Rich's from the other "Hair Metal" bands (Poison et al all used BC's at some point), as well as all the Thrash & Death Metal bands of the same time. Messrs King, Hanneman & Araya were long time BC users at that point.
[/quote]

Significantly, though, Slash chose to play a vintage Mockingbird guitar, referring back to a previous era of rock music and aspiration rock and roll -orientated guitars. It's not a genre I am an authority on by any means, but I seem to remember that by contrast the hair metal bands were favouring the later more pointy and extreme models of B C Rich that were current models at the time. It is important to make that distinction because, by playing the Mockingbird , Slash was making reference and paying homage to the era of 1970's rock groups that had inspired him like Aerosmith ( Joe Perry and Brad Whitford both played B C Rich's during that decade) , and aligned himself with the spirit of that age rather than with the following decade which had given rise to the hair metal bands, who were imminently about to fall inexorably out of fashion at that time in the early 1990's .

[Dingus]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1392484758' post='2369324']
People did order custom models but we always had them in stock too. The first time I ever went in the shop I was 15 & had never seen a BC Rich or any other high end US guitar up close. A friend of mine told me a new guitar shop had opened & they had "those weird shaped guitars you like" - of course I didn't believe him until I went in there myself & what I saw completely overwhelmed me. There were two Mockingbird standards & a Mockingbird supreme, two Biches, an Eagle supreme, a Mockingbird bass, a Bich bass & a Bich 8 string bass..... and that was before I noticed the Deans & the Hamers. They also regularly stocked basses by Manson, Pangborne, Jaydee, Alembic, Steinberger & Wal.

You can probably see why I don't have much interest in going into music shops much these days.

I started talking to the owner of the shop & he was really impressed that I knew what all these guitars were. I started helping out in the shop soon after & still helped out when I could even after I'd got a "proper" job. The shop was actually the UK distributors for BC Rich for a while in the 80s, changed location twice & finally closed when the owner decided on a change of career & went into web design.

Some of the best days of my life were spent in that shop.
[/quote]
[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392655868' post='2371140']
I sincerely feel your pain. I remember that era...music shops were an exciting day out.

Today music shops are generally full of Fenders, Squiers or Fender variants.......B O R I N G.
[/quote]

Yes, quite.

I can't really tell if it is because I have become more blase` about the whole thing , but guitar shops are nowhere near as alluring a proposition as they once were. The depressing uniformity of both the stock and the establishments themselves bears little or no relation to the tantalising excitement of going to guitar shops in my youth. One long-gone little independent shop where I lived when I was growing up regularly had basses from JayDee, Ashley Pangbourne , Overwater, Vigier ect, as did its' competitor on the other side of the town centre, and both shops had staff who were bass players and were as enthusiastic about basses as you were. It was a thrill just to see those kind of basses in the flesh, even if I couldn't afford to buy one at that time, kind of like looking at sculptures in an art gallery. Even if you don't have one at home, you could enjoy the beauty and experience some joy from that.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1392650246' post='2371053']
Looking at an old thread I took part in years ago on another forum there was footage of Geezer gigging a John Birch Rick in green burst. Can't find the footage on YT as yet.
[/quote]

Maybe that is what he used on Never Say Die?

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392670356' post='2371502']
Maybe that is what he used on Never Say Die?[/quote]

I would be the right era (1978) if he'd had the bass for a couple of years or so (JB's peak for copying - and selling - copies of classic basses) but the only NSD video I can find it's an actual ........... Rick.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1392670857' post='2371508']
I would be the right era (1978) if he'd had the bass for a couple of years or so (JB's peak for copying - and selling - copies of classic basses) but the only NSD video I can find it's an actual ........... Rick.
[/quote]

That is probably the live at Hammersmith Odeon video where he is playing Glen Hughes' bass. On the Sabbath TOTP appearance Geezer is using the Birch striped EBO bass. The truth is probably lost forever due the the fact that no one ever thought it was important at the time. .

Edited February 17, 2014 by Dingus

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392670287' post='2371497']
Yes, quite.

I can't really tell if it is because I have become more blase` about the whole thing , but guitar shops are nowhere near as alluring a proposition as they once were. The depressing uniformity of both the stock and the establishments themselves bears little or no relation to the tantalising excitement of going to guitar shops in my youth. One long-gone little independent shop where I lived when I was growing up regularly had basses from JayDee, Ashley Pangbourne , Overwater, Vigier ect, as did its' competitor on the other side of the town centre, and both shops had staff who were bass players and were as enthusiastic about basses as you were. It was a thrill just to see those kind of basses in the flesh, even if I couldn't afford to buy one at that time, kind of like looking at sculptures in an art gallery. Even if you don't have one at home, you could enjoy the beauty and experience some joy from that.
[/quote]
I can totally relate to this observation as I had almost the same experiences.

As has already been asserted already in this thread it seems that the current generation of cool young players find individuality and innovation uncool....that is not cool (from my uncool perspective).

[The fasting showman]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392670287' post='2371497']
Yes, quite.

I can't really tell if it is because I have become more blase` about the whole thing , but guitar shops are nowhere near as alluring a proposition as they once were. The depressing uniformity of both the stock and the establishments themselves bears little or no relation to the tantalising excitement of going to guitar shops in my youth. One long-gone little independent shop where I lived when I was growing up regularly had basses from JayDee, Ashley Pangbourne , Overwater, Vigier ect, as did its' competitor on the other side of the town centre, and both shops had staff who were bass players and were as enthusiastic about basses as you were. It was a thrill just to see those kind of basses in the flesh, even if I couldn't afford to buy one at that time, kind of like looking at sculptures in an art gallery. Even if you don't have one at home, you could enjoy the beauty and experience some joy from that.
[/quote]I totally agree with Dingus and White Cloud. I started playing bass in such a great era regarding the shops and the stock carried ('82 to say '88) in Birmingham. I well remember seeing the Superyob guitar (or did I dream it?) before Musical Exchanges moved to Snowhill. I also remember being unjustifiably sniffy about the many John Birch 'copies' as I then saw them, I didn't see their true worth, or the value in the music of Slade, Jim Lea's great bass playing etc.
I think starting bass playing back in the '80s has forever altered my perspective on '70s Fenders, much as I like them they will always be a £300 instrument to me. Also I'm always more attracted to EBMM 'Rays due to the impact they made on me as a kid when they burst onto the market around '87 with their boiled sweet finishes.
Back to the OP, from having John Diggins work on my old wreck of a Fender I've seen some of the newly made Iommi SGs up close and the workmanship is fantastic, the stainless steel metalwork in contrast to the dense black paintwork looks great. It seems a shame that a corresponding Geezer EB never got established, or a John Birch like Jim Lea's say for example. I can't praise John Diggins highly enough as a woodworker, or as a bloke! Always been a great help to me with my gear.
Martin

Edited February 18, 2014 by The fasting showman

[White Cloud]

[quote name='The fasting showman' timestamp='1392716231' post='2371821']
I think starting bass playing back in the '80s has forever altered my perspective on '70s Fenders, much as I like them they will always be a £300 instrument to me. Also I'm always more attracted to EBMM 'Rays due to the impact they made on me as a kid when they burst onto the market around '87 with their boiled sweet finishes.
[/quote]
I totally agree....I just cannot get excited over Fenders for the same reason...ever.

The 80's were such a special time for me. On reflection so many boundary's were being smashed in all aspects of traditional British life. The youth of today have no concept of the massive impact that Colour TV, Video players, cremola foam and micro wave ovens had. I still have a laugh when I remember my Fathers disgust when seeing Boy George singing "Karma chameleon" lol.

Musically this emerging technology was weaved into a willingness to push the envelope to new heights....just think of Yes breaking their prog shackles and releasing "90125" & "Big Generator", and Geddy Lee brandishing Steinberger & Wal basses and tearing it up on "Power Windows".

Odd that here we are 30 years later ...and everyone wants to play mass produced 1960's passive basses.

[Dingus]

[quote name='The fasting showman' timestamp='1392716231' post='2371821']
I totally agree with Dingus and White Cloud. I started playing bass in such a great era regarding the shops and the stock carried ('82 to say '88) in Birmingham. I well remember seeing the Superyob guitar (or did I dream it?) before Musical Exchanges moved to Snowhill. I also remember being unjustifiably sniffy about the many John Birch 'copies' as I then saw them, I didn't see their true worth, or the value in the music of Slade, Jim Lea's great bass playing etc.
I think starting bass playing back in the '80s has forever altered my perspective on '70s Fenders, much as I like them they will always be a £300 instrument to me. Also I'm always more attracted to EBMM 'Rays due to the impact they made on me as a kid when they burst onto the market around '87 with their boiled sweet finishes.
Back to the OP, from having John Diggins work on my old wreck of a Fender I've seen some of the newly made Iommi SGs up close and the workmanship is fantastic, the stainless steel metalwork in contrast to the dense black paintwork looks great. It seems a shame that a corresponding Geezer EB never got established, or a John Birch like Jim Lea's say for example. I can't praise John Diggins highly enough as a woodworker, or as a bloke! Always been a great help to me with my gear.
Martin
[/quote]

Birmingham has always been a very bass-orientated city, and certainly was back in the 1980's. I remember walking round Birmingham on a snowy day looking for the Bass Place ( a lot of interesting secondhand stuff in there , from what I remember), and Musical Exchanges, which had loads of everything , new and second hand, and was absolutely brilliant in those days.

I totally agree with your assessment of 1970's Fenders, too - £200 for a Precision , and around £300 for a Jazz Bass. I have upset a few people and had a few rows with folks on Basschat when I have tried to suggest that ,as instruments to use as working tools, these basses are not worth in excess of two grand and that it is like paying brand new BMW money for an old clapped out Ford Escort, but it seems many people are not receptive to that message.

John Diggins made me a custom bass at the end of the 1980's and it was fantastic, with the most impressive woodworking of any bass I have ever owned at any price, Unfortunately, at the peak of John's success in the 1980's his quality control went very seriously awry, as he is the first to admit, and he had some very disappointed customers, such as our own White Cloud, who received seriously substandard basses as a result . I always found John to be a lovely bloke, too,as well as a conscientious and supremely skilled craftsman , and he was very unhappy about the situation he had gotten into with being under so much pressure to satisfy demand for his basses. He seemed relieved to get back to building the basses himself, the way had done originally .

[Thunderbird]

I love my Fender it is awesome but I do have to agree with Dingus that 2 grand is IMO mental money for a bass new or old but on the other hand it is like a classic car that cost £500 new 40 years ago and is now worth like 10 grand but if people want to spend that kind of money on a bass or anything else its up to them its there money and if it makes them happy then why not.