Black Sabbath basses

[Dingus]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392717119' post='2371831']
I totally agree....I just cannot get excited over Fenders for the same reason...ever.

The 80's were such a special time for me. On reflection so many boundary's were being smashed in all aspects of traditional British life. The youth of today have no concept of the massive impact that Colour TV, Video players, cremola foam and micro wave ovens had. I still have a laugh when I remember my Fathers disgust when seeing Boy George singing "Karma chameleon" lol.

Musically this emerging technology was weaved into a willingness to push the envelope to new heights....just think of Yes breaking their prog shackles and releasing "90125" & "Big Generator", and Geddy Lee brandishing Steinberger & Wal basses and tearing it up on "Power Windows".

Odd that here we are 30 years later ...and everyone wants to play mass produced 1960's passive basses.
[/quote]

I suppose every age is modern to those people living in it, and people of our age group will always regard the 1980's as the decade which defined what is modern because it was an era in which people were [u] absolutely and completely obsessed[/u] with modernity. In cultural terms, everything which had gone before was summarily dismissed as irrelevant, outmoded and worthy of distain, and everybody joined in with that ethos. To say that you liked or enjoyed things of the era which had immediately proceeded the 1980's was to invite scorn and ridicule upon yourself. Everything had to have short hair, narrow collars and be "designer" in some way or other. By contrast , the last twenty years of popular culture have been equally as obsessed with nostalgia and a retrospective longing for the past . Both these respective cultural trends were reflected in the kind of instruments bass players aspired to at the given time.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392724104' post='2371925']
I suppose every age is modern to those people living in it, and people of our age group will always regard the 1980's as the decade which defined what is modern because it was an era in which people were [u] absolutely and completely obsessed[/u] with modernity. In cultural terms, everything which had gone before was summarily dismissed as irrelevant, outmoded and worthy of distain, and everybody joined in with that ethos. To say that you liked or enjoyed things of the era which had immediately proceeded the 1980's was to invite scorn and ridicule upon yourself. Everything had to have short hair, narrow collars and be "designer" in some way or other. By contrast , the last twenty years of popular culture have been equally as obsessed with nostalgia and a retrospective longing for the past . Both these respective cultural trends were reflected in the kind of instruments bass players aspired to at the given time.
[/quote]
This is an excellent post.

[The fasting showman]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392723201' post='2371919']
Birmingham has always been a very bass-orientated city, and certainly was back in the 1980's. I remember walking round Birmingham on a snowy day looking for the Bass Place ( a lot of interesting secondhand stuff in there , from what I remember), and Musical Exchanges, which had loads of everything , new and second hand, and was absolutely brilliant in those days.

I totally agree with your assessment of 1970's Fenders, too - £200 for a Precision , and around £300 for a Jazz Bass. I have upset a few people and had a few rows with folks on Basschat when I have tried to suggest that ,as instruments to use as working tools, these basses are not worth in excess of two grand and that it is like paying brand new BMW money for an old clapped out Ford Escort, but it seems many people are not receptive to that message.

John Diggins made me a custom bass at the end of the 1980's and it was fantastic, with the most impressive woodworking of any bass I have ever owned at any price, Unfortunately, at the peak of John's success in the 1980's his quality control went very seriously awry, as he is the first to admit, and he had some very disappointed customers, such as our own White Cloud, who received seriously substandard basses as a result . I always found John to be a lovely bloke, too,as well as a conscientious and supremely skilled craftsman , and he was very unhappy about the situation he had gotten into with being under so much pressure to satisfy demand for his basses. He seemed relieved to get back to building the basses himself, the way had done originally .
[/quote]Great post Dingus. I sometimes wonder with me though whether there's an element of sour grapes relating to '70s Fenders; my old de-mudbuckered Tele bass converted into a P-bass probably genuinely is worth £300 and I am forced to wear it around my neck (Ancient Mariner reference) to atone for all the would be now valuable Fenders I 'modified' from reading Guitar Player magazine too much back in the '80s! To quote Joe Barden, I've a lot to tell St Peter about regarding trashing guitars...
I do struggle when I'm in some music boutique and I hear a sales man waxing lyrical over a 2 grand 14 pound '78 p bass!
Back to Sabbath, I recorded in DEP studios in Brum back in '97 and Mr Iommi was recording there at the time. I vividly remember a very flashy Jaydee style / SG with a headstock like a Supernatural on a stand in one of the rooms. Very imposing.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='The fasting showman' timestamp='1392732312' post='2372074']
Back to Sabbath, I recorded in DEP studios in Brum back in '97 and Mr Iommi was recording there at the time. I vividly remember a very flashy Jaydee style / SG with a headstock like a Supernatural on a stand in one of the rooms. Very imposing.
[/quote]
Yes, we have digressed somewhat.

That must have been an intimidating experience...Iommi, in the context of rock history, is at the top of the food chain (with others of course).

[The fasting showman]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392732642' post='2372079']
Yes, we have digressed somewhat.

That must have been an intimidating experience...Iommi, in the context of rock history, is at the top of the food chain (with others of course).
[/quote]Yes I saw the man himself too during the course of the week there, whilst being perfectly amiable he too was imposing! Taller than me anyway. I remember when Sabbath were rehearsing at Rich Bitch studios in Brum (91 ish?) seeing Vinnie Appice standing in a door way towering over me, again a perfectly friendly bloke from memory.
I wish I'd valued seeing these people more back then, daft really.
Martin

[White Cloud]

[quote name='The fasting showman' timestamp='1392733191' post='2372089']
I wish I'd valued seeing these people more back then, daft really.
Martin
[/quote]
Martin, having read your words I would say that you valued it more than [i]you realised[/i] at the time....

[The fasting showman]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392733522' post='2372101']
Martin, having read your words I would say that you valued it more than [i]you realised[/i] at the time....
[/quote]I think you are right Sir, no matter what a deluded poseur I was in the mid '90s you can't ever forget first hearing Master of Reality can you? 'Into the void' and all...
In the Midlands (I live in Ye Merrie olde Lichfield, but have lived in Brum on and off) there's so many links to people who knew Sabbath either at School or via families and the massive factories, IMI for instance, in the Witton/ Aston area. Lots of ex-pat Brummies here in the sticks. I was in a band with a bloke who's uncle had road managed them way back when. I'm sure lots of people could say the same thing.
I believe (could be wrong) that Sabbath's first gig as Black Sabbath was in a now long gone pub in Lichfield. Others will know for sure.

Edited February 18, 2014 by The fasting showman

[White Cloud]

[quote name='The fasting showman' timestamp='1392735132' post='2372118']
I think you are right Sir, no matter what a deluded poseur I was in the mid '90s you can't ever forget first hearing Master of Reality can you? 'Into the void' and all...
In the Midlands (I live in Ye Merrie olde Lichfield, but have lived in Brum on and off) there's so many links to people who knew Sabbath either at School or via families and the massive factories, IMI for instance, in the Witton/ Aston area. Lots of ex-pat Brummies here in the sticks. I was in a band with a bloke who's uncle had road managed them way back when. I'm sure lots of people could say the same thing.
I believe (could be wrong) that Sabbath's first gig as Black Sabbath was in a now long gone pub in Lichfield. Others will know for sure.
[/quote]
Master of reality was immense. Incidentally, having been born in Stafford I myself am a midlands boy.

Its a pity that Brum has hit the headlines lately regarding TV's "Benefit street". I'm certain that the members of BS knew similar hardships...

[Conan]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392392098' post='2368138']
BC Rich Eagle:



[/quote]

Nice.... but it needs more switches.

[Dingus]

[quote name='The fasting showman' timestamp='1392735132' post='2372118']
I think you are right Sir, no matter what a deluded poseur I was in the mid '90s you can't ever forget first hearing Master of Reality can you? 'Into the void' and all...
In the Midlands (I live in Ye Merrie olde Lichfield, but have lived in Brum on and off) there's so many links to people who knew Sabbath either at School or via families and the massive factories, IMI for instance, in the Witton/ Aston area. Lots of ex-pat Brummies here in the sticks. I was in a band with a bloke who's uncle had road managed them way back when. I'm sure lots of people could say the same thing.
I believe (could be wrong) that Sabbath's first gig as Black Sabbath was in a now long gone pub in Lichfield. Others will know for sure.
[/quote]
[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392735984' post='2372127']
Master of reality was immense. Incidentally, having been born in Stafford I myself am a midlands boy.

Its a pity that Brum has hit the headlines lately regarding TV's "Benefit street". I'm certain that the members of BS knew similar hardships...
[/quote]

That part of the World has always been a bastion of heavy rock music. Sabbath were, of course, one of the originators of that sound, and countless other bands from the West Midlands have followeed in their wake. There are literally too many associations to list.

On the subject of Stafford, does anyone else remember what big events the concerts were at the New Bingley Hall were back in the 1970's? It really was one of the top venues in the country, and I remember bands like Sabbath, Rush, Bob Marley and the Wailers, Queen, David Bowie ect doing shows there that people travelled from all over the country to attend.

[The fasting showman]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392830144' post='2373240']
That part of the World has always been a bastion of heavy rock music. Sabbath were, of course, one of the originators of that sound, and countless other bands from the West Midlands have followeed in their wake. There are literally too many associations to list.

On the subject of Stafford, does anyone else remember what big events the concerts were at the New Bingley Hall were back in the 1970's? It really was one of the top venues in the country, and I remember bands like Sabbath, Rush, Bob Marley and the Wailers, Queen, David Bowie ect doing shows there that people travelled from all over the country to attend.
[/quote]I saw Rainbow at 'the cowshed' back in '83 Mr Dingus, Lita Ford as the support act. Funny that I'd forgot about that venue until I read the Sean Mayes Bowie tour diary where it mentions it as a date on the 'Lodger' tour or thereabouts. Hard to imagine heroes of mine like George Murray and Dennis Davis in my neck of the woods.
I wonder if Mr White Cloud above was living in Stafford when Ozzy was getting his solo stuff together with Bob Daisley down the road in Eccleshall?

[Dingus]

[quote name='The fasting showman' timestamp='1392732312' post='2372074']
Great post Dingus. I sometimes wonder with me though whether there's an element of sour grapes relating to '70s Fenders; my old de-mudbuckered Tele bass converted into a P-bass probably genuinely is worth £300 and I am forced to wear it around my neck (Ancient Mariner reference) to atone for all the would be now valuable Fenders I 'modified' from reading Guitar Player magazine too much back in the '80s! To quote Joe Barden, I've a lot to tell St Peter about regarding trashing guitars...
I do struggle when I'm in some music boutique and I hear a sales man waxing lyrical over a 2 grand 14 pound '78 p bass!
.
[/quote]

Yes, I suppose anything will become "vintage" with the passing of time, but some people fail to grasp that, as with wines, there are good vintages and bad vintages. A lot ( not all) of the mid to late '70's Fenders were the very reason why the older ones became highly sought after in the first place.

I love Fender basses and enjoy playing good ones a great deal , but, unpopular view as it may be with some folks, I find the new ones Fender make today to be as good as any I have ever played. Call me a peasant if you like, but to me , once you strip away the bullshit, in the scheme of things the Fender is a relatively simple bass. That is its' great strength and the real secret to its' enduring popularity. There was nothing particularly magical in the way they were manufactured in the past, and there is no real reason why the ones from today can't be just as good.

"What has any of this got to do with Geezer Butler?" I hear you ask. " Plenty!" is my answer.

When it comes to basses, Geezer is on record in the post-Millenium era as saying that he wanted to get back to playing Fenders , but that their inconsistencies and downright unreliability put him off, until he discovered Lakland basses on a visit to the Bass Centre at Wapping, and he realised they could offer the sound a feel of his vintage Fenders but with all the benefits and advantages of modern high precision manufacturing and expert craftsmanship. He has stuck with Lakland for over ten years as his main touring basses, and this year they have finally unveiled the new Geezer Butler Signature model. The only available prototype is for sale at a shop in Chicago:

[url="http://www.bassclubchicago.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=LLUS4460GEEZERNAMM"]http://www.bassclubc...S4460GEEZERNAMM[/url]

Seems like Sabbath Inc. have denied Geezer and Lakland permission to use the devil inlay. Oh well...

These basses will feature the new Geezer signature EMG pickups:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcKRho-h2_c"

Edited March 24, 2014 by icastle
Link fixed.

[Dingus]

[quote name='The fasting showman' timestamp='1392830612' post='2373248']
I saw Rainbow at 'the cowshed' back in '83 Mr Dingus, Lita Ford as the support act. Funny that I'd forgot about that venue until I read the Sean Mayes Bowie tour diary where it mentions it as a date on the 'Lodger' tour or thereabouts. Hard to imagine heroes of mine like George Murray and Dennis Davis in my neck of the woods.
I wonder if Mr White Cloud above was living in Stafford when Ozzy was getting his solo stuff together with Bob Daisley down the road in Eccleshall?
[/quote]

George Murray is one of my all-time favourite players , too, and I saw Bob Daisley playing with Ozzy on the Blizzard Of Oz tour in 1980.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1392736299' post='2372129']
Nice.... but it needs more switches.
[/quote]

At least back in those days when you got bored with your bass because you had exhausted your repertoire of things to play then you could start fiddling with your knobs and switches and amuse yourself that way.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Dingus

[White Cloud]

[quote name='The fasting showman' timestamp='1392830612' post='2373248']
I wonder if Mr White Cloud above was living in Stafford when Ozzy was getting his solo stuff together with Bob Daisley down the road in Eccleshall?
[/quote]
No, afraid not. I left Stafford in 1974.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392831946' post='2373266']
Yes, I suppose anything will become "vintage" with the passing of time, but some people fail to grasp that, as with wines, there are good vintages and bad vintages. A lot ( not all) of the mid to late '70's Fenders were the very reason why the older ones became highly sought after in the first place.

I love Fender basses and enjoy playing good ones a great deal , but, unpopular view as it may be with some folks, I find the new ones Fender make today to be as good as any I have ever played. Call me a peasant if you like, but to me , once you strip away the bullshit, in the scheme of things the Fendera relatively simple bass. That is its' great strength and the real secret to its' enduring popularity. There was nothing particularly magical in the way they were manufactured in the past, and there is no real reason why the ones from today can't be just as good.

"What has any of this got to do with Geezer Butler?" I hear you ask. " Plenty!" is my answer.

When it comes to basses, Geezer is on record in the post-Millenium era as saying that he wanted to get back to playing Fenders , but that their inconsistencies and downright unreliability put him off, until he discovered Lakland basses on a visit to the Bass Centre at Wapping, and he realised they could offer the sound a feel of his vintage Fenders but with all the benefits and advantages of modern high precision manufacturing and expert craftsmanship. He has stuck with Lakland for over ten years as his main touring basses, and this year they have finally unveiled the new Geezer Butler Signature model. The only available prototype is for sale at a shop in Chicago:

[url="http://www.bassclubchicago.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=LLUS4460GEEZERNAMM"]http://www.bassclubc...S4460GEEZERNAMM[/url]

Seems like Sabbath Inc. have denied Geezer and Lakland permission to use the devil inlay. Oh well...

These basses will feature the new Geezer signature EMG pickups:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcKRho-h2_c
[/quote]
Another great post Dingus!

Edited March 24, 2014 by icastle
Link fixed.

[Lorne]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392473583' post='2369151']
£700? Then why didn't I have one ? I was only about £650 quid short of one .

According to the inflation calculator, £700 was the equivalent of £2546 today. However, such conversions are misleading as they do not take into account the amount of disposable income people have in the respective eras. Far more people have £2546 to spend on a bass in 2014 than there were people with £700 to put down on one in 1980.

I based that price( £1000) on my only point of reference, which was a very old feature in Guitarist Magazine about a vintage hot bubblegum pink B C Rich Bitch guitar that had originally belonged to the wonderfully-named Len Tuckey , who was in fact Suzi Quatro's guitarist and first husband . I seem to remember Suzy had a matching pink Bitch bass. In the article it mentioned that the original receipt was still in the case , and that the guitar had been ordered from a shop in the London, and it had cost £900 in 1979. I had figured that the basses would have been a bit more expensive. If your old price list says that the Bitch was actually a more expensive model then that explains my mistake. My sincere apologies to anyone who has overpaid for a B C Rich on the basis of my misinformation in the interim period .

That is very interesting that you worked for a B C Rich dealer at the time. Did many people order them , or did you keep stock in the shop? They were such beautiful instruments. I can distinctly remember people who didn't even play guitar noticing how amazing they looked at the time. My first recollection of them is the members of Thin Lizzy all playing them in the video for " Do Anything You Want To" , which will have been around 1979, in fact. . Then for a while you couldn't give them away, and then Slash used a Mockingbird guitar in the video for "You Could Be Mine" and the used market took off again, it seemed like .
[/quote]

A few things, The B.C.Rich instruments used by Thin Lizzy in the 1979 Video, were lent to them by Max Kay of E.F.R. guitars London, the new price for a Mockingbird bass from him in 1979 was £750, I own the Mahogany Mockingbird bass that Phil Lynott used in that Video, it's a late 1978 bass :-)

Suzi Quattro's Bich bass, wasn't ordered in London, Len had it built especially for Suzi by B.C.Rich as it had a smaller, guitar sized body for her, as a standard sized Bich bass body would have looked huge on her small frame, I believe she had 2 built

Bernie Rico Snr building Geezer's basses for him, Rico Snr wasn't known to have picked up any tools and build anything (Although he could do a killer Tobacco Burst paint job), 90% of the necks were hand carved by Juan Hernadez R.I.P. at BCR North, so Geezer's basses were most likely made by him :-)

[Dingus]

[quote name='Lorne' timestamp='1392904573' post='2373981']
A few things, The B.C.Rich instruments used by Thin Lizzy in the 1979 Video, were lent to them by Max Kay of E.F.R. guitars London, the new price for a Mockingbird bass from him in 1979 was £750, I own the Mahogany Mockingbird bass that Phil Lynott used in that Video, it's a late 1978 bass :-)

Suzi Quattro's Bich bass, wasn't ordered in London, Len had it built especially for Suzi by B.C.Rich as it had a smaller, guitar sized body for her, as a standard sized Bich bass body would have looked huge on her small frame, I believe she had 2 built

Bernie Rico Snr building Geezer's basses for him, Rico Snr wasn't known to have picked up any tools and build anything (Although he could do a killer Tobacco Burst paint job), 90% of the necks were hand carved by Juan Hernadez R.I.P. at BCR North, so Geezer's basses were most likely made by him :-)
[/quote]

Wow, you've got the bass from that video! I can vividly remember seeing it at the time - I was a huge fan of Thin Lizzy- and thinking how beautiful those guitars were and how expensive they looked

I read in an interview with Geezer that when they started recording Heaven And Hell he wasn't happy with his bass sound, and it was at that point that one of the engineers suggested B C Rich , and that he subsequently visited the factory and that Bernie made the basses for Geezer himself. What Geezer understands by " making them " might well be ( in fact must be, from what you say) overseeing other craftsmen doing the actual work.

I only wish that B C Rich had been able to continue as a company as they were in those days, building fantastic hand-crafted instruments with unique designs. Like so many similar sized concerns, they got lost and swallowed up in takeovers and buyouts , and the brand became diluted as a result.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Dingus

[Lorne]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392918033' post='2374215']
Wow, you've got the bass from that video! I can vividly remember seeing it at the time - I was a huge fan of Thin Lizzy- and thinking how beautiful those guitars were and how expensive they looked

I read in an interview with Geezer that when they started recording Heaven And Hell he wasn't happy with his bass sound, and it was at that point that one of the engineers suggested B C Rich , and that he subsequently visited the factory and that Bernie made the basses for Geezer himself. What Geezer understands by " making them " might well be ( in fact must be, from what you say) overseeing other craftsmen doing the actual work.

I only wish that B C Rich had been able to continue as a company as they were in those days, building fantastic hand-crafted instruments with unique designs. Like so many similar sized concerns, they lost and swallowed up in takeovers and buyouts , and the brand became diluted as a result.
[/quote]

I think the Brand became Diluted because Rico Snr was quiet the fabricator of the truth, he let Randall Waltuch licence the B.C.Rich name, under the Class Axe banner, so Rico could go Jet Boat racing, his main boat was called Rich Bich. When he got bored of that, he took the company back, then in 1999 he died, and his son, Bernie Rico Jnr, sold the company to the Hanser Brothers.
[font=Calibri]Juan Hernandez[/font]
[font=Calibri][url="http://s4.photobucket.com/user/190968/media/JohnnyHernandezRIP20-20Carver.jpg.html"][/url][/font]
[font=Calibri]Phil[/font]
[font=Calibri][url="http://s4.photobucket.com/user/190968/media/my%20basses/1978USATJMockingbirdPhilLynott.jpg.html"][/url][/font]
[font=Calibri]The Bass[/font]
[font=Calibri][url="http://s4.photobucket.com/user/190968/media/my%20basses/1978USATJMockingbird.jpg.html"][/url][/font]

[font=Calibri]The bass was bought in 1979, and put in an attic in 1982, I recovered the bass from that attic in December of 2006, I was lucky enough to be given the bass :-)[/font]

[White Cloud]

Awesome. This thread (despite being based on a great original post) has veered uncontrollably into a rarefied, mega interesting territory

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='Lorne' timestamp='1392920055' post='2374253']
[font=Calibri][url="http://s4.photobucket.com/user/190968/media/my%20basses/1978USATJMockingbird.jpg.html"][/url][/font]

[font=Calibri]The bass was bought in 1979, and put in an attic in 1982, I recovered the bass from that attic in December of 2006, I was lucky enough to be given the bass :-)[/font]
[/quote]

I'd love to hear the twang off that bridge pickup, that placing is tighter than a camel's doo-dah in a sandstorm.

[Graham]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392928546' post='2374425']
Awesome. This thread (despite being based on a great original post) has veered uncontrollably into a rarefied, mega interesting territory
[/quote]
Yeah, I'm really enjoying it, cheers guys.

I love that BC Rich, and it's not often I say that

[Dingus]

New full-length video of Geezer talking about his new EMG signature pickups, Hartke amps and Lakland basses ect, including reminiscences about his B.C Rich basses, which once again he refers to as being custom-made by Bernie Rico:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmzuiRLcD2E[/media]

Edited March 26, 2014 by Dingus

[dudewheresmybass]

That's awesome. Thanks for posting dingus

[Dingus]

When Geezer plays the bass unaccompanied, you can hear the impressive attack he gets playing with just his fingers, and why he seldom needs to use a pick.