warwickhunt Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 So it's likely to be closer to the £1500 if you want the DI included; I for one can't see the point of 'excluding' a DI as you never know when circumstances will change and you may need one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1392405498' post='2368440'] Is it that much more to have it included? [/quote] I'd guess about £175 based on US pricing so total would be £1,300 rather than £1,500. I've been chatting to a fairly heavyweight pro player who tried it at NAMM as well. He said it sounded amazing - so much so that he had to go back and try it a second time to make sure he hadn't got it wrong the first time. I've done some tests using a VTB 201 and a Minnie which is going to sound relatively similar and it was very nice. What was really interesting was setting the VTB up using Lee Sklar's settings. They look a bit 'odd' but sound great - I guess he should know what he's doing though The new pre is probably going to have a bit more of a mid bias compared to the VTB and will sound a little more vintage but I'm guessing this is going to be fairly marginal. I have done some pretty exhaustive tests with the Minnie power amp and it really is a cracking little unit. We've run it with a variety of pre-amps and run direct comparisons against a big money Rackmount unit, a relatively low cost rack amp and the power stages of some good quality integrated heads. It basically beat everything we put it up against for overall tone and sound quality. Th downside is that it's £865 and it's almost certain to rise to £900 on next orders. Adding the valve pre from a VTB is essentially only sticking £250 or so on top of the power amp so that's what is getting the guys in the US so excited Edited February 14, 2014 by molan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1392406266' post='2368460'] So it's likely to be closer to the £1500 if you want the DI included; I for one can't see the point of 'excluding' a DI as you never know when circumstances will change and you may need one. [/quote] I'm the opposite. I don't understand why people would use a 'pre-EQ' from the amp. I'd rather use an outboard DI that I can sort a nice tone with, send to the FOH from there and also to the amp and use amp EQ for fine tuning of tone/getting a nice 'on stage' sound that can differ from what is required from the FOH. Also, most FOH engineers don't want the same EQ/tone that's coming from your amp, they want a dry signal and sort the EQ themselves, so it makes just as much sense to have the DI outboard in that situation. Also, I find the isolation on outboard preamps/DIs much better than the noisy, poorly isolated DI that most amps I've had/played through seem to feature. I'd buy an amp without DI without a second thought if it sounded good :-) Just my opinion though :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) [quote name='skej21' timestamp='1392409620' post='2368529'] Also, most FOH engineers don't want the same EQ/tone that's coming from your amp, they want a dry signal and sort the EQ themselves [/quote] Therein lies the enigma; you fine hone 'your sound' with a lush amp/cab set-up and then a hairy assed sound guy does whatever he wants to get the sound that a ) he wants to hear b ) fits the room acoustics! Edited February 14, 2014 by warwickhunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroydiamond Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1392409948' post='2368538'] Therein lies the enigma; you fine hone 'your sound' with a lush amp/cab set-up and then a hairy assed sound guy does whatever he wants to get the sound that a ) he wants to hear b ) fits the room acoustics! [/quote] +1 Your on to something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 (edited) [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1392409948' post='2368538'] Therein lies the enigma; you fine hone 'your sound' with a lush amp/cab set-up and then a hairy assed sound guy does whatever he wants to get the sound that a ) he wants to hear b ) fits the room acoustics! [/quote] Funnily enough I got the opposite effect recently. Turned up at recording studio with a really good idea of what I wanted to sound like. Engineer insisted on using a DI and used quite a lot of Studio trickery on my signal. Sounded nothing like me on the final recording - it actually sounded really good and very professional. . . Edited February 15, 2014 by molan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 [quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1392411869' post='2368586'] +1 Your on to something. [/quote] When there's PA support, rigs only need to be used for on stage monitoring purposes. FOH sound is always down to the engineer and they have a tricky enough job to do as it is without it being made more complicated by a player who is making adjustments but can't hear what he sounds like to the audience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1392423533' post='2368752'] Funnily enough I got the opposite effect recently. Turned up at recording studio with a really good idea of what I wanted to sound like. [/quote] Good point but when it relates to whether to exclude a DI on an expensive amp, why bother with ANY amp if you are recording with a half decent engineer? To whit the next point... [quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1392432059' post='2368823'] When there's PA support, rigs only need to be used for on stage monitoring purposes. [/quote] Absolutely, at which point the nuances of the effect that the superb power amp section of your rig has on your tone, is likely negated and will be totally lost on even the band, never mind the audience. [size=4] [/size][size=4] [/size] [size=4]Not picking holes and arguments, simply that I find it fascinating that we (and I am prime candidate #1) chase the elusive goal of tonal nirvana and debate the [/size]subtitles[size=4] of the effect of power amps over tone or the need for a neutral cab (not me on the last one) etc but lets be honest it's 95% for our benefit rather than 'the music'. I for one know that I could do 99% of what I do with one of my student 'Stagg' basses, a cheap low brand (sufficiently loud) amp/cab/combo and a cheap DI box; actually I wouldn't need that as a live sound engineer would supply that. [/size] [size=4]...you can drop the need for a DI from my Demeter order! [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 I think sometimes inexperienced players don't realise that super hi fidelity recording standard backlines are unnecessary in order to hear themselves. I've also played through some players rigs on shared billing nights and been shocked at how muddy their backline sounds (and been mystified at how they manage to play in tune other than by sight). A live rig just needs to offer control, honesty and volume, in my experience. All that is needed is some adjustment to compensate for stage acoustics. The GK RB700 1x15 combo I played for a long while was pretty much the perfect gigging amp apart from the weight and those f***ing castors that kept disintegrating. Valve DI's have their place in a studio players backline, but realistically those who can earn a living from studio work are increasingly uncommon. [size=4]Besides which most decent studios these days will have an Avalon VT737SP which is increasingly the last word in DI preamps anyway.[/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franzbassist Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share Posted February 15, 2014 Major thread derailment guys If you want the DI version of this head then buy it. If you don't, dont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 [quote name='walbassist' timestamp='1392451807' post='2368860'] Major thread derailment guys If you want the DI version of this head then buy it. If you don't, dont. [/quote] 'Derailment'... debating the merits of the features of an amp! [size=4] Really?[/size][size=4] [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franzbassist Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share Posted February 15, 2014 It's just that it's a non-debate IMHO: if you want the DI, get the DI version. If I had called this thread "Should it be compulsory for the new Demeter Minnie VTBP-M-800D to be fitted with a DI" or "What's the point of an amp without a DI?" then I would have expected such debate. Anyway, no big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 [size=4] [/size] [size=4]I think it's perfect debate material. The very fact that folks with lots of first hand knowledge of amps (with/without DI) are discussing the features of an amp, helps us and others form opinions/decisions. As you say it's no big deal but if we didn't have this banter you may as well not bother responding to any thread. [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1392446444' post='2368840'] lets be honest it's 95% for our benefit rather than 'the music'. I for one know that I could do 99% of what I do with one of my student 'Stagg' basses, [/quote] I was having this exact discussion with a pro player last week. I had been at a gig with a, painstakingly chosen, early Fender custom shop relic Jazz and there were some lighting issues which meant it was near impossible to see the dot markers. Not a huge issue but I had a backup with me that had clearer dots and block markers. Swapped basses at half time and discovered that my sound was, to all intents and purposes exactly the same in the second set. I really couldn't hear any difference on stage. Not too surprising until you realise I'd swapped to a Mike Lull P bass! From a J with everything on full to a P and, in a live band context, I couldn't hear the difference. My pro player said exactly the same thing The next day I agreed a purchase of a new Fodera Custom and placed an order for one of these Demeter amps. The Pro enquired about a trade for a brand new Alleva Coppolo or possibly a Fender CS Pino. We just can't help ourselves Another day later I bought a new Lull J as well because I liked the P so much! I'm super excited about both the basses and the amp. It's entirely possible no-one else will be able to hear any differences in the sound but if it makes me smile then I'll be happy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1392457594' post='2368915'] but if it makes me smile then I'll be happy [/quote] Always been my view Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) The point of a soundcheck is to set the tone and stay with it..... you really really can't twiddle after this point and if you are running two or more basses you need to have them sorted within this tone stack as well...ditto FX's... That is the work you do in setting up your stage kit....If you don't know the engr and he is unsure about you, then of course, he will want to take this 'variable' out of the equation. He isn't going to want you to have in line front FX's either... This is just making things hard, so.......????? Edited February 16, 2014 by JTUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Being pedantic..... I get my gear set up and working how I want in the "line check" and set the balance of the band on stage and through the PA in the "sound check". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanbass1 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Well, I decided to pull the trigger and have just ordered one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franzbassist Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 [quote name='alanbass1' timestamp='1393066685' post='2375747'] Well, I decided to pull the trigger and have just ordered one [/quote] Good man, welcome to the club! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroydiamond Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 These look great but anybody got any idea what they sound like?. I am not familiar with Demeter gear. Can we expect old school thump, or a more modern tone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 First actual units arrive in the UK on Tuesday and the only people who've heard them would have been at NAMM in January. I've heard a VTB201 (which is close to the pre in this head) through the same 800w power amp section it'll have. It was a very clean but smooth sound and the power stage is really 'muscular' with clear note to note definition. It's not old school valve thump but, equally, not like a super modern solid state head. The new amp is going to sound a little 'slower' and warmer based on what James Demeter says and what I've heard from two people who have used one at NAMM. However, I think the difference may be relatively marginal compared to the VTB210 / Minnie combination unless you have an extremely good ear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I'm tempted by one of these.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Woohoo they arrived a day early - cue complete failure to finish stocktaking on strings and much testing of new amp with multiple basses and cabs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1393280331' post='2378319'] Woohoo they arrived a day early - cue complete failure to finish stocktaking on strings and much testing of new amp with multiple basses and cabs [/quote] Some people have amazing jobs . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 [quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1392405498' post='2368440'] Is it that much more to have it included? [/quote] Correction on my part - DI version is an extra £100 not £175. Non DI is £1,125 and DI is £1,225. I ordered a DI version in the end. Based on first impressions it really is an amazing little amp. Made a couple of cabs sound better than I've ever heard them before. I'll try to write up a proper review when I've had more time to play properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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