TimR Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1392676241' post='2371595'] It makes you think about the ritualistic element of "healers" of various ilks. Is it all about releasing the inner healing abilities of the body? The more ritual, the more buy-in. Probably includes church and prayer too... [/quote] I think there's a lot more to this than meets the eye, as it were. Even your subconscious can't be fooled by your concious? Subconsciously, you know you've taken medicine. I think this is similar to athletes at the elite end who don't understand that they can fail, it doesn't even enter their thoughts that they won't win. While some of us are doubting whether we will complete 26.2 miles, there are others who are wondering how they will get even faster than they did last time and beat their rivals by a bigger margin. And those that doubt whether they can run 26.2 generally end up walking at some point. I wonder about the woman who was taking a placebo and then tried to buy one at the health food shop. Did she actually understand what a placebo is? Optimists generally do better in life than pessimists. Self fulfilling prophesy? Your mental in physical wellbeing are completely interlinked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 I really enjoyed that. A diverse exploration of 'the placebo effect'. I do think that 'The Placebo Effect' is a bit of a misnomer. Surely a placebo is just a tool, one of many, used to stimulate the mind's control of the body. The effect is more the conditioning of the mind to enhance, reduce, ignore, minimise or focus the physical controls, coordination, senses and feelings? As an ex elite runner (yes, a long time ago) and more recently a club cyclist I am very aware of the difference in performance when the mind is attuned to ignoring suffering. A placebo may be one way of achieving this but it's not the only way. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel36 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 It's all in the mind. Caffeine for example...when people think it gives them a buzz in the morning with their coffee they believe it. I've done it with a mate of mine and other people where this mate said he gets severe palpitations with coffee/caffeine, so when he's at my house, I give him the coffee with caffeine in it and he's o.k but....I replaced it in the jar with decaff ! and he sees this as I brew it. Another time I gave him a decaff one but I'd put the decaff in the ordinary coffee jar and he said he had palpitations because of the caffeine. Sugar rush...that's another one whereby it's all in the mind. People do get rather aggressive about this though as they like to believe in stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [quote name='Colonel36' timestamp='1392728652' post='2371986'] It's all in the mind. Caffeine for example...when people think it gives them a buzz in the morning with their coffee they believe it. I've done it with a mate of mine and other people where this mate said he gets severe palpitations with coffee/caffeine, so when he's at my house, I give him the coffee with caffeine in it and he's o.k but....I replaced it in the jar with decaff ! and he sees this as I brew it. Another time I gave him a decaff one but I'd put the decaff in the ordinary coffee jar and he said he had palpitations because of the caffeine. Sugar rush...that's another one whereby it's all in the mind. People do get rather aggressive about this though as they like to believe in stuff. [/quote] If you use chemicals to upset the body chemistry and this leads to various manifestations I think it's a little brave to say it's all imagined. It is indeed all in the mind though, literally Not at all angry or aggressive, just saying. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel36 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [quote name='GreeneKing' timestamp='1392728911' post='2371989'] If you use chemicals to upset the body chemistry and this leads to various manifestations I think it's a little brave to say it's all imagined. It is indeed all in the mind though, literally Peter [/quote] One of the points is Peter that there was no caffeine in the jar he thought was caffeine and he reacted to it. So, no "chemical" but folk react as if there is because it's in the mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [quote name='Colonel36' timestamp='1392729290' post='2371999'] ...So, no "chemical" but folk react as if there is because it's in the mind. [/quote] Everything is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Colonel36' timestamp='1392729290' post='2371999'] One of the points is Peter that there was no caffeine in the jar he thought was caffeine and he reacted to it. So, no "chemical" but folk react as if there is because it's in the mind. [/quote] Yes but when I got palpitations from coffee the 1st time I didn't expect it. I didn't even know that coffee could do this. Likewise, I suffered pins and needles recently and it was likely due to too much sugar (I've a serious sugar problem). I didn't expect it and now I've cut down the problem has gone away. I think the whole point is that the body can influence the mind and the mind can then influence the body. But this path isn't without influence Peter Edited February 18, 2014 by GreeneKing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Cloud Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [quote name='GreeneKing' timestamp='1392729661' post='2372006'] I think the whole point is that the body can influence the mind and the mind can then influence the body. But this path isn't without influence Peter [/quote] True. The human being is a biological cybernetic system....body & mind. The unconscious mind is generally in control and benevolent...but is open to influence in a way that is staggering. It accepts suggestion very literally! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel36 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Anyone remember the experiment on telly where they gave a bunch of students a few tests to do and then they gave them coffee and were told that it was full of caffeine. They all got "buzzed up" and got on with the tests and when they were asked about it they said they were as high as kites and performed better, except................... there was no caffeine It was all in their minds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Cloud Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [quote name='Colonel36' timestamp='1392730446' post='2372024'] Anyone remember the experiment on telly where they gave a bunch of students a few tests to do and then they gave them coffee and were told that it was full of caffeine. They all got "buzzed up" and got on with the tests and when they were asked about it they said they were as high as kites and performed better, except................... there was no caffeine It was all in their minds. [/quote] People are incredibly [i]open to influence[/i] and are literally functioning on a day to day basis whilst in varying degree's of [i]trance[/i]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel36 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392730712' post='2372027'] People are incredibly [i]open to influence[/i] and are literally functioning on a day to day basis whilst in varying degree's of [i]trance[/i]. [/quote] Precisely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 You looked very professional Chris, and very comfortable with the camera. I know only too well the challenges of explaining technical complexities to an audience with non technical levels of comprehension. I thought it was a nice balance between comprehesiveness and accessibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392730712' post='2372027'] People are incredibly [i]open to influence[/i] and are literally functioning on a day to day basis whilst in varying degree's of [i]trance[/i]. [/quote] It's not really trance, more openness to suggestion depending on how much they trust you. There's nothing unusual about the science of persuasion, however it's actually possible for competent managers at work to modify other people's behaviour over two weeks through repeated positive daily reinforcement. It works at home too. Say if your kids don't tidy up their rooms, then say to them every day something like 'I really like it when your room is tidy, it looks so nice and you do such a good job of it too' for two weeks. See if it works or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfisher Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1392730247' post='2372019'] The unconscious mind is generally in control and benevolent...but is open to influence in a way that is staggering. [/quote] There has been some intruiging research in this area that suggests we don't have free will. Basically, monitoring the brain when someone is asked to do something like move a finger and the activity involved in moving the hand has been measured to happen BEFORE the subject DECIDES to move it. It's a controversial area, but quite fascinating. http://io9.com/5975778/scientific-evidence-that-you-probably-dont-have-free-will (and other stuff if you search for it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Cloud Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392731282' post='2372045'] There has been some intruiging research in this area that suggests we don't have free will. Basically, monitoring the brain when someone is asked to do something like move a finger and the activity involved in moving the hand has been measured to happen BEFORE the subject DECIDES to move it. It's a controversial area, but quite fascinating. [url="http://io9.com/5975778/scientific-evidence-that-you-probably-dont-have-free-will"]http://io9.com/59757...-have-free-will[/url] (and other stuff if you search for it) [/quote] It is fascinating...but this phenomenon is already well [i]known [/i]and [i]utilised [/i]in hypnotherapy..and has been for well over 100 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1392727033' post='2371968']I wonder about the woman who was taking a placebo and then tried to buy one at the health food shop. Did she actually understand what a placebo is?[/quote] Not seen the programme yet, but hopefully they just pointed her towards the homeopathic remedies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1392737565' post='2372147'] Not seen the programme yet, but hopefully they just pointed her towards the homeopathic remedies! [/quote] Lol. She went to the natural remedy shop and asked for placebo pills. They thought she was mad. The ethics committe would only allow the trail to run for three weeks. After that her symptoms came back. Mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Great stuff Chris! Congratulations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 [quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1392675790' post='2371588'] Interesting programme. Obviously they only get a few minutes to dramatise a whole lot of research but one point that struck me during the cycling trial as shown was that there was no real control, or not one that was explained. The programme made a point of including the cyclists saying they would not normally race twice in one day so presumably there was no reference for what their second performance would have been without any pills - placebo or not. [/quote] Yes, I was going to raise that same point. TBH, due to the small sample size and lack of control, this seemed more like an anecdotal demonstration than true research - interesting but not of itself of any great weight. That's not to say that the placebo effect hasn't been firmly established now, by rigorous trials using much larger sample sizes, and it's also not meant as a criticism, as showing a lot of numbers from trail results wouldn't put the point across as well as the cycling did. The physiological changes engendered by placebo were interesting, establishing a mechanism by which the effect is manifested and demonstrating that it's not just psychological. There's a fair bit on the placebo effect in Ben Goldacre's book [i]Bad Science[/i], which everybody should read anyway. He also raises the point about the disclosed placebo, which is where the whole thing starts to get very puzzling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceChick Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Just watched it!! Awesome!! Cyclists, Velodrome, home of British Cycling and a BassChat member!! What is not to love. You looked great on camera Beedster, came across as very professional and down to earth, perfect balance of expertise and approachability! Tempted to take some corn flour before my morning bike commute tomorrow If I get a PB I'll let you know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom1946 Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Well done Chris, so, who's the bloke in your avi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurksalot Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 Well done , I watched it the other night , it was very good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebuckets Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Saw the trailer with the velodrome results but can't get the programme is it still available? Can't believe I missed an Horizon. Really interesting and thought provoking, well done Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted April 21, 2017 Author Share Posted April 21, 2017 And again tonight (at least for those of you with Netflix). 'Bill Nye saves the World' series 1 episode 2. If you like and/or use alternative medicine however, don't watch it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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