Drive units, facts and fashion

[Torben Hedstrøm]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1392811895' post='2372941']
who? i know what you mean but a lot of the forward steps in bass amplification down the years have been smaller companies innovating.
[/quote]

I would dare say that most companies in this business started out small. That is actually one of the very cool things about the bassplayer community IMHO... Alot of the luthiers and other producers have a very personal relationship with their customers.

[discreet]

Enjoy a weekend break in Brighton and fly home with a Barefaced Midget as hand luggage.

Edited February 19, 2014 by discreet

[Torben Hedstrøm]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1392815905' post='2373015']
When those comparisons are made it's the corporations with 'million dollar R&D budgets' that come up short. First off, no bass cab manufacturer spends that kind of money on R&D. For that matter, a very small percentage of their budget is devoted to R&D with respect to technical improvements. Most of it is spent on market research for what really sells cabs, which isn't how they sound. It's how they look.
[/quote]

You could ofcourse be right, this day and age endorsment and other PR stunts sell (probably also in the older days, come to think of it). But if companies like MarkBass, Genz Benz (R.I.P), SWR (R.I.P), EBS, Glockenklang etc. Don't have engineers doing actual optimizations for both cabs and amps, I would be very surprised !.

I mean, as I read from the Barefaced website, they are not making any actual groundbreaking discoveries... They are driven by enthusiasm (and obviously know how !!) doing what they do. And I see that as a VERY positive thing (same way as I am a big user/funder of OpenSource software - Because I usually get better support and products from a bunch of people passionate about what they do).

Regards.
Torben...

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1392815905' post='2373015']
When those comparisons are made it's the corporations with 'million dollar R&D budgets' that come up short. First off, no bass cab manufacturer spends that kind of money on R&D. For that matter, a very small percentage of their budget is devoted to R&D with respect to technical improvements. Most of it is spent on market research for what really sells cabs, which isn't how they sound. It's how they look.
[/quote]

Indeed, the biggest problem for large companies is marketing (to create/asses demand) and manufacture/supply-chain (to meet the demand ahead of time). By simply making things that people have actually ordered you dispense instantly with all these expensive problems.

[discreet]

[quote name='Torben Hedstrøm' timestamp='1392819561' post='2373062']
...as I read from the Barefaced website, they are not making any actual ground-breaking discoveries...
[/quote]

They are discovering that if they make no-compromise cabs that sound amazing, demand will exceed supply.

[FinnDave]

[quote name='Torben Hedstrøm' timestamp='1392803575' post='2372837']
Reason why I am being so anal about all this is, that the diversity of bass gear really sucks here. That means that I will likely buy my stuff from UK or DE. And since a bass cab is not exactly in the same league as sending a postcard, I would like to hit the bullseye on my first try .
[/quote]

Until 15 months ago, I lived in Finland, even further away, even less choice, even more expensive...so I do understand!

According to Barefaced's site, they ship a 212 to anywhere in the EU for £90.00. I was fortunate in that Brighton is only a couple of hours or so away, so collected my Super Twin from Alex & co, I have been very happy with the cab so far, lots of volume, excellent tone, and easy to carry in one hand.

[JPJ]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1392800088' post='2372786']
But you don't need big drivers to do this & remember, driver diameter has no bearing on how much bass a cab produces, that is down to the tuning of the cab.

[/quote]

Amen brother, and a well known to any of us who have ever used any of the Phil Jones Bass stuff with the 4" speakers.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Torben Hedstrøm' timestamp='1392818993' post='2373052']
But postage for a 30 kg. cab is something like £870 or so I hear
[/quote]

Really? [size=4] [/size]

[Dad3353]

[quote name='Torben Hedstrøm' timestamp='1392818993' post='2373052']
I saw that, and I am tempted... If claims hold true I would be thrilled !. But postage for a 30 kg. cab is something like £870 or so I hear, and that not only add significantly to the price - It is is also quite far from a 'free' trial if I return it
[/quote]

Have you seen this..?

[url="http://barefacedbass.com/ordering-and-availability.htm"]Barefaced Ordering and Availability...[/url]

Disclaimer: I have no connection with them (I'm a drummer...).

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Torben Hedstrøm' timestamp='1392819561' post='2373062']
But if companies like MarkBass, Genz Benz (R.I.P), SWR (R.I.P), EBS, Glockenklang etc. Don't have engineers doing actual optimizations for both cabs and amps, I would be very surprised !.
[/quote]I wouldn't. I could tell you of a number of companies who have no engineers, because I've done designs for them. I could, but I won't, because that would violate the first thing that they make you sign before embarking on a project, which is a non-disclosure agreement. More than a few companies would be severely embarrased if it was known that they don't do their own R&D.
Some don't even hire outside engineers. You'd be amazed at how many companies arrive at their designs by simply copying others. You'd also be shocked to know how many don't build their own cabs. There are a number of independent cabinet building companies who build cabs for many companies all under the same roof.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Torben Hedstrøm' timestamp='1392819561' post='2373062']
...I mean, as I read from the Barefaced website, they are not making any actual groundbreaking discoveries....
[/quote]

You don't have to invent anything in order to improve the bass cab market (although Alex's new driver seems to be pretty unique). As bass players we seem to have been happy employing less than optimal sound quality for decades.

Barefaced and others are, at last, applying good audio design to the manufacture of their cabs. In comparison to many "high volume" manufacturers that really is the part that is ground breaking.

Edited February 19, 2014 by chris_b

[Torben Hedstrøm]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1392820285' post='2373076']


Really? [size=4] [/size]
[/quote]

Whooops, one too many digits there. That would be roughly £87 (knowing this from a quote I got recently).

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Torben Hedstrøm' timestamp='1392819561' post='2373062']
You could ofcourse be right, this day and age endorsment and other PR stunts sell (probably also in the older days, come to think of it). But if companies like MarkBass, Genz Benz (R.I.P), SWR (R.I.P), EBS, Glockenklang etc. Don't have engineers doing actual optimizations for both cabs and amps, I would be very surprised !.

I mean, as I read from the Barefaced website, they are not making any actual groundbreaking discoveries... They are driven by enthusiasm (and obviously know how !!) doing what they do. And I see that as a VERY positive thing (same way as I am a big user/funder of OpenSource software - Because I usually get better support and products from a bunch of people passionate about what they do).

Regards.
Torben...
[/quote] I couldn't give a bigger reply while at work (also Bill FM has joined in now and he knows WAY more than most folk here)
I think if you go into PA cabs then yes the big boys can afford engineers and the product from the mid range up is sold on it's technical abilities and the specific measurements of them. I can go on a PA manufacturer's website and find out the -3dB point on the cab, the -10dB point, maybe a SPL chart, the power of an amp and the damping factor and so on. Now I'm fairly sure these stats go via a marketing dept so I'm not taking them as gospel - but that information is there. You would never find (i think) a PA amplifier that puts out 225w sold as a 450w amp....

I have never seen a bass amp that gives it's damping factor, or it's burst power or so on. I've also never seen a bass cab which gives that much information about what's going on. Once in a while they do, but often not and often the frequency response won't tell you what point that's measured from and so on. Some you can trust and other maybe less so. Others you can tell, they've got a great range of amps and need branded cabs or vice versa - they may not have the technical knowledge in both areas.
Bass players I think, mainly just plug in either whatever is traditional, or whatever is cool or whatever is available and play.

Every so often someone comes along and does something new, or slightly innovative - and the history of bass amps, including all the brands you've just mentioned, seem to me to be little guys coming up with something new and growing a company out of it. Which is good.
For example Yamaha I think was the first little class D amp I saw - but it was Mark Bass that everyone started playing.
So it depends what you're looking for - I don't think their are any groundbreaking discoveries left to make in speaker cabs, just evolutions and new ways of doing it.
Eminence bring out the Kappalite speakers and it's fearful and barefaced that seem to jump on that bandwagon first. Then they both take their design's forward in different ways, Fearless refining the fearful and barefaced going with custom designed woofers and so on. Now there's a lot more builders using derivations of that speaker range (and similar alternatives) and the 1x12 is fashionable in certain circles.
So I think that some of the most interesting stuff will come from the one man/small engineer circles designing stuff that wouldn't be commercially viable for the big boys and coming up with things that sell.
Otherwise there is behringer....


[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1392821297' post='2373095']
I wouldn't. I could tell you of a number of companies who have no engineers, because I've done designs for them. I could, but I won't, because that would violate the first thing that they make you sign before embarking on a project, which is a non-disclosure agreement. More than a few companies would be severely embarrased if it was known that they don't do their own R&D.
Some don't even hire outside engineers. You'd be amazed at how many companies arrive at their designs by simply copying others. You'd also be shocked to know how many don't build their own cabs. There are a number of independent cabinet building companies who build cabs for many companies all under the same roof.
[/quote] How long before we see a spate of cabs all looking like your simplexx range I wonder... . it's sad in a way

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1392833657' post='2373287']
How long before we see a spate of cabs all looking like your simplexx range I wonder...
[/quote]What makes them different is what's on the inside anyway.

[LawrenceH]

95% of the clever stuff in a reflex cab designed for bass guitar is in the actual drive unit. Many of the compromises in the cabinets themselves are more-or-less duplicated between designs either for cost reasons, or because they have chosen common sonic priorities (eg increased midbass efficiency over 'true' bass, compact footprint, historically less worried about coloured midrange reproduction). PA driver design has probably led the way because that's the big market for improved high-power thermal/mechanical performance - as Luke says, once new drivers have come to market from the PA side, so the most suitable for bass guitar are then adopted in a range of designs. This seems especially true of the American designs since nearly all of them depend on Eminence as far as I can tell. Also consider that driver manufacturers like to use essentially the same magnet/voicecoil designs across multiple driver sizes. For a 2.5 to 3" coil the 10-15" range is sensible with 12" sitting nicely in the middle, so probably easiest to make work as a design with the usual cone/suspension materials.

Another aspect is the shift in preferred voicings for bass guitar to include more mid/high content. The off-axis presentation of a 'typical' 12" driver compared to a typical 15" is improved in quite a critical range (1-2kHz), while modern improved drive unit excursion/handling and, importantly, higher power amps, mean the efficiency loss is more than compensated in comparison to older designs. [size=4]It's interesting that Eminence and Celestion are among the few driver manufacturers with dedicated ranges for bass guitar. Celestion in particular have taken an interesting approach with decidedly old-school thump-y, coloured voicings, analogous to the dedicated electric guitar drivers which would also be unsuitable for PA. I'd also say some of the Eminence 'PA' drivers are probably better suited to bass guitar than high-end PA![/size]

One thing that I'll repeat from another thread...it is relatively easy and cheap to come up with a 212 cab that will cover most gig situations adequately and I believe many of the 'boutique' 212s to be overkill in terms of pure volume capability. It is far more difficult and expensive to get there with a 112 and still requires a pretty nice (ie expensive) driver, even with a 115.