uncle psychosis Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 The thing that I always think about in these threads is "does anyone actually think we've got [i]worse[/i] at building stuff in the last 50 years?" Thats just an insult to the skills of the modern luthier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1392972708' post='2374716'] The thing that I always think about in these threads is "does anyone actually think we've got [i]worse[/i] at building stuff in the last 50 years?" Thats just an insult to the skills of the modern luthier. [/quote] Interesting way to phrase it. The answer may well be 'Yes'. Firstly, because some components have deteriorated in quality over the last 50 years (wood being the obvious example). Secondly, because an instrument produced in batches of a hundred by skilled workers in the USA or the UK may quite possibly be (on average) better than an instrument produced in batches of 10,000 on a mass-production line made economical only through ultra-low labour costs. Hardly a definite answer, I grant you, but I would remind everyone that there are two types of fool: one says "if it's old then it's good", the other says "if it's new then it's better". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 My 1968 CBS Precision wasn't a good one, but who knew at the time? I didn't. It sounded better than the competition so any problems wouldn't emerge until later when cabs came along which let you actually hear the instrument. My bass only started to sound 2nd class when it was going up against basses in the 90's. I changed the pickups and it started to hold it’s own again. Even then Pre CBS basses were generally rated as being better (even though some of them weren’t) but everyone happily played those dreaded 70's and 80’s basses and loved them. So either the "issues" weren't that noticeable or, the real truth of the matter, weren’t actually much of a problem at all. The differences would mostly only have been noticed in the studio anyway. Bass cabs were so woolly that not many people would have noticed the precise tone of the bass on a gig. Beyond a preference for Fender, most players I ran into didn’t care what the bass player sounded like. It was what you played, how you played it and what kind of a person you were that mattered most and got you the gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earhook Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Here here Hamfist! My old ply sattelite kicks the ass off a modern peav#y I had the misfortune to buy a bit back. I gave it (peav#y) to some kids to paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingus Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1392972708' post='2374716'] The thing that I always think about in these threads is "does anyone actually think we've got [i]worse[/i] at building stuff in the last 50 years?" Thats just an insult to the skills of the modern luthier. [/quote] In this and your other posts on this subject , you have hit the nail on the head, my friend. There is a marked gap between perception and reality, but that is hardly surprising when you consider how subjective the appreciation of fine aesthetic details can be. The greatest irony about the cult of vintage is that, of all bass guitar designs, the Fender is one of the most simple and straightforward , and on the face of it should be easiest to reproduce consistently. I have played and owned a lot of basses , both vintage and new, and the difference in sound between a pre-CBS Fender and even a half-decent new one is not much at all. The characteristic Fender tones are sufficiently dominant in any case , regardless of the age of the bass. It 's far more the difference in appearance and feel that influences peoples impression of the experience of playing these basses. Edited February 21, 2014 by Dingus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssentialTension Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1392972708' post='2374716'] The thing that I always think about in these threads is "does anyone actually think we've got [i]worse[/i] at building stuff in the last 50 years?" Thats just an insult to the skills of the modern luthier. [/quote] Victorian buildings have a tendency to look better and to last longer than modern buildings. Same goes for mediaeval cathedrals. Anyway, do you really think that luthery skills have changed very much in a mere fifty or so years? But I do hope the poor things aren't too insulted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machinehead Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 [quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1392997033' post='2375105'] In this and your other posts on this subject , you have hit the nail on the head, my friend. There is a marked gap between perception and reality, but that is hardly surprising when you consider how subjective the appreciation of fine aesthetic details can be. The greatest irony about the cult of vintage is that, of all bass guitar designs, the Fender is one of the most simple and straightforward , and on the face of it should be easiest to reproduce consistently. I have played and owned a lot of basses , both vintage and new, and the difference in sound between a pre-CBS Fender and even a half-decent new one is not much at all. The characteristic Fender tones are sufficiently dominant in any case , regardless of the age of the bass. It 's far more the difference in appearance and feel that influences peoples impression of the experience of playing these basses. [/quote] I find myself agreeing with the above post. I don't have a [b][i]lot[/i][/b] of experience with pre-CBS Fender basses. I've played a few over the years but I don't remember ever feeling that they were superior to newer instruments. I did however, recently play a 1961 Fender Jazz at a gig. This example had been well cared for and had minimal wear - certainly much, [b][i]much[/i][/b] less than the current road-worn series. Amazing condition really as this bass has been gigged regularly all its life. The owner very kindly offered to let me play his bass that he has owned for 49 years, having bought it used in 1965. I didn't want to pass up a rare opportunity to play such a legendary piece of bass history, so I accepted his very generous offer. After being handed the bass and putting the strap on, the first thing I noticed was the awful neck dive. None of my modern Fenders suffer from this. The bass was wearing flats - I have no idea of the make. Anyway, the bass sounded superb but no better (and perhaps, even not as much to my liking, but that's subjective) as my AVRI '75 jazz, a bass which has had many positive comments on its sound. The way the bass was set up wasn't to my liking at all. Very high action and the strings seemed to be a particularly heavy guage. This instrument had no fret markers on the top of the neck or, if they were there, they had become invisible over time. I was expecting some kind of "spiritual" experience but what I found was that the bass was unpleasant to play and wasn't actually any different sounding to a decent modern Fender. I can tell you that it was a disappointment for me. When I went back to my own AVRI '75, I immediately felt more comfortable and the tone had more growl and bite. My own bass also felt far better to play. Everything felt tighter and just better to the touch. And no neck-dive. I'm not judging every pre CBS Fender by this experience but it does sort of confirm my long-held belief that age and playing time does little or nothing to improve how a bass sounds. How it feels, well yes, but this can be replicated quite easily. So would I like to own this bass? Absolutely yes. Olympic white, beautiful original tort guard, a bird-eye maple neck and a richly coloured rosewood fretboard. Just lovely. However, a post 2008 American standard jazz in similar livery would be, in my opinion, every bit as good as the '61, minus the mojo. If I wanted a '61 jazz I suppose could, after working for 41 years, probably afford to buy one. It's similar price-wise to buying a new car. (Another thing I'll never do again!) The fact is I simply couldn't bring myself to spend that much cash on one except perhaps as an investment. At current prices the investment value is surely doubtful. A long, somewhat rambling post, and one that in no way is intended to take anything away from vintage Fender lovers which, in a strange way, I am too. Frank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle psychosis Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 [quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1393008601' post='2375286'] Victorian buildings have a tendency to look better and to last longer than modern buildings. Same goes for mediaeval cathedrals.[/quote] ..and modern people tend to last longer than Victorian people did. Buildings and people are not basses though, and so both are almost irrelevant to the discussion [quote]Anyway, do you really think that luthery skills have changed very much in a mere fifty or so years? But I do hope the poor things aren't too insulted.[/quote] I think that the skills involved in designing and making bass guitars have moved on a lot in fifty years. Instruments would have to be a very, very unique subset of manufacturing in order for the earliest models to be superior to the most modern versions. Nobody buys cars from the fifties because they are technologically better than modern cars---they buy them because they're interesting pieces of history that have some kind of coolness about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Better wood in the 50's? ...WW2 had only finished a few years earlier, most industry had gone over to the war effort....I'd be surprised if there was oodles of unused wood ageing gracefully away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) [quote name='iconic' timestamp='1393021398' post='2375459'] Better wood in the 50's? ...WW2 had only finished a few years earlier, most industry had gone over to the war effort....I'd be surprised if there was oodles of unused wood ageing gracefully away? [/quote] Quite. And the very first Precisions featured pressed-fibre bridge saddles, pickup bobbins and pickguards due to shortages created by the Korean War. Edited February 21, 2014 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 [quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1393016057' post='2375389'] ....Buildings and people are not basses though, and so both are almost irrelevant to the discussion .... [/quote] Yep the car metaphor doesn't quite work in this instance. I used to own a '64 Beetle. Definitely had desirability and wow factor. But give me my faster, quieter, comfier, maintenance free Mégane any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 In answer to the original question, there is no answer because the question of 'sounds better' is purely subjective. I have played some tasty 60's Jazz basses and then been blown away by South Korean copies sounding even better (which are lighter and nicer to play) I have built sub 7Ib basses (from cigar box wood / Spanish Cedar) that have been described as having 'monster' tone. Modern kiln dried woods are more consistent than air dried wood, modern electric parts are consistent and reliable, have you ever heard Q-tuners? Mojo is overrated and I wish I had had a shed full of CNC machinery rather than having to hand carve necks. Just like old cars there will always be a market for 'old' basses but price has no bearing on quality or purposefulness. To me, all that is important in a bass is whether I can get the tone I require from it, and whether it is good to play. Everything else is irrelevant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 [quote name='Prosebass' timestamp='1393029174' post='2375539'] ...all that is important in a bass is whether I can get the tone I require from it, and whether it is good to play. [/quote] No thoughts about whether it looks good, or otherwise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1393029754' post='2375544'] No thoughts about whether it looks good, or otherwise? [/quote] none whatsoever as long as it is comfortable, [attachment=155830:Seated03website.JPG] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman Sam Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 [quote name='discreet' timestamp='1393029754' post='2375544'] No thoughts about whether it looks good, or otherwise? [/quote] [quote name='Prosebass' timestamp='1393030163' post='2375552'] none whatsoever as long as it is comfortable, [attachment=155830:Seated03website.JPG] [/quote] A bit like choosing a girlfriend then. [size=4] [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 [quote name='Bassman Sam' timestamp='1393030560' post='2375556'] A bit like choosing a girlfriend then. [/quote] Must be my age, comfort starts to take precedence over all other factors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzjames Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 5'48'' http://youtu.be/xXhhkwG6NTs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 [quote name='Jazzjames' timestamp='1393331124' post='2378745'] 5'48'' [media]http://youtu.be/xXhhkwG6NTs[/media] [/quote] His opinion is no more valid than anyone's really, perhaps even less so as he has financial (and emotional) investment in old bolted together basses. The thing is that this whole "vintage sounds better" debate is a testable claim - you can easily transplant parts from Fenders and do double blind tests to find out exactly what differences there are (or maybe aren't), in fact if there are any differences you could switch parts around and find out exactly what was causing them. Nobody seems to want to do this though, perhaps the Talkbass tonewood test has made them a bit shy? Probably easier to just keep on prattling about vibrations and resonation on YT videos than actually find out if you're talking bollocks or not. Personally I think there actually is a difference, but not due to some magical harmonic musical relationship developed between two pieces of wood over the last 60 years. The pickups will sound a little different, stick them in a slab of wood, bolt a neck on and I bet nobody would be able to tell. Actually, surely an old reclaimed piece of wood from an 1800s church pew would have more vintage mojo than anything those young upstarts at Fender have produced? All those years of choir singing and repetetive chanting will still resonating through the grain don't you know......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 [quote name='lemmywinks' timestamp='1393332452' post='2378773'] ..... surely an old reclaimed piece of wood from an 1800s church pew would have more vintage mojo than anything those young upstarts at Fender have produced?..... [/quote] Awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1393332695' post='2378778'] Awesome. [/quote] Make a goat head bass out of a church pew! And then stick a Fender decal on it and stamp it with a '68 serial number... Edited February 25, 2014 by lemmywinks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreeneKing Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 'Vintage basses sound better'? I always thought basses sounded like the amplified output of a string vibrating over a pickup. Oh well, you learn something every day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 [quote name='lemmywinks' timestamp='1393332870' post='2378781'] Make a goat head bass out of a church pew! [/quote] And be damned to hell for all eternity? Might be worth a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immo Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 As long as the "vintage bass" is combined with "Japanese", it works. Don't ask, how or why, it just really works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 http://guitarz.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/your-guitars-andys-pew-bass-andys-done.html Winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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