My hand's killing me

[Huw]

I've been laid up with a pretty bad ankle sprain for the last week and eventually at the end of the week, I thought I may as well use my time to practice. So with renewed vigour, I thought I'd sit down and try and get some practice done every night I can from now on.

I've been dipping in and out of a couple of books I bought some months back; Classical Masterpieces for Electric Bass, and JS Bach for Electric Bass.
Tonight, I started in earnest and tried to have a go at Bach's Prelude to Suite 1 in G Major (the main theme for Victor Wooten's Classical Thump)

My left hand is in agony. My main concern here is; will this get any better? I started up with a warm up, playing

-------------------1234--1234------------------
-------------1234--------------1234------------
-------1234--------------------------1234------
-1234--------------------------------------1234

moving up a fret each time and then back down the neck, and every time I hit first position, my hands were spazzing out in pain.

Then I had a go at the Bach piece:
[attachment=10557:bach.jpg]

Now it looks fairly simple, but even at 30bpm I could barely hold the notes down in the bottom two shapes. Is this going to come with time, or do I really need to start lifting weights with just my fingers in order to build up the strength?

feeling pretty miserable about it at the moment.

[xilddx]

How exactly does your hand feel? What sort of pain? Where? How long after you stop playing does it go on for? Etc., etc. ..

I was doing the exact same exercise this evening and felt no pain but found it hard all of a sudden, played cold. It's a very repetitive exercise though and warm up should include stretches before you pick up your bass.

[Oscar South]

Try looking at using 1-2-4 technique up to around the 5th or 7th fret, one finger per fret all over the neck is imo an unsuitable technique for bass thats been inherited from guitar playing whereas electric bassists would be better drawing from double bass technique. When I changed to 1-2-4 I could play longer, cleaner, faster, better etc. etc.

[Kiwi]

On reading the thread title, I mistakenly thought of Thing from the Addams family.

[mr.sibs]

i found both of those okay, as mentioned above, dont warm up in 1st position, thats a big no no, try 1234 starting 7th fret up

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote]Try looking at using 1-2-4 technique up to around the 5th or 7th fret, one finger per fret all over the neck is imo an unsuitable technique for bass thats been inherited from guitar playing whereas electric bassists would be better drawing from double bass technique. When I changed to 1-2-4 I could play longer, cleaner, faster, better etc. etc.[/quote]

I applaud you, Sir! Also, try making sure the left hand thumb is upright, behind the middle finger & not hooked over the top of the neck. There should always be plenty of clearance between the palm of your hand & the neck.

BTW, the G Major Prelude is nothing like Victor Wooten's classical thump. If you'd like the official sheet music for the thump, I'll get it copied and mailed to you

Further to the subject of the cello suites, there's an edition transposed for double bass. It's all in different keys and much more manageable.

Edited July 7, 2008 by OutToPlayJazz

[Huw]

I'd say the pain in my left hand tends to be across the back of my hand/palm, along with a sapping of strength from my fingers. I generally only get it in that first position, as some of you may have already guessed. My hand just kind of locks up, but I can let go of the neck and shake it out.

I do also play guitar, so I guess that's where my one finger per fret discipline is coming from. I do always keep my thumb on the back of the neck, though. I'll give 1-2-4 a shot tomorrow, and starting further up the neck. But does that just go for warm up exercises? The piece does seem to want me to stay down in second position finger per fret for those last 3 bars. Or are you saying it should be fine for short spells, while playing?

I had a little practice playing it an octave up, and that was a lot easier, obviously.

OutToPlayJazz, thanks for the offer, bu I do have a copy of Classical Thump here. Think I'm a long way off trying to play that if I can't manage this, though.


Any other exercises I should try? Are those Gripmasters a waste of time?

Edited July 7, 2008 by Huw

[ahpook]

i'm no expert, but one bit of advice i'd give to to make sure you're not gripping the neck too tight. when my fretting hand starts feeling tired or crampy i've found cos i've been gripping the neck like a vice.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Huw' post='234610' date='Jul 7 2008, 11:29 PM']I'd say the pain in my left hand tends to be across the back of my hand/palm, along with a sapping of strength from my fingers. I generally only get it in that first position, as some of you may have already guessed. My hand just kind of locks up, but I can let go of the neck and shake it out.

I do also play guitar, so I guess that's where my one finger per fret discipline is coming from. I do always keep my thumb on the back of the neck, though. I'll give 1-2-4 a shot tomorrow, and starting further up the neck. But does that just go for warm up exercises? The piece does seem to want me to stay down in second position finger per fret for those last 3 bars. Or are you saying it should be fine for short spells, while playing?

I had a little practice playing it an octave up, and that was a lot easier, obviously.

OutToPlayJazz, thanks for the offer, bu I do have a copy of Classical Thump here. Think I'm a long way off trying to play that if I can't manage this, though.


Any other exercises I should try? Are those Gripmasters a waste of time?[/quote]

Sounds like you have some inflammation in your hands, possibly carpal tunnel problems, I would see my GP and then probably a physio.

Like the other dudes said, warm up throughly before playing in the first position.

[OutToPlayJazz]

Yes, the 1-2-4 fingering across a whole tone will ease this, I think. Sounds as if you're just overstretching & the hand/tendons are complaining (more than a little!) As Oscar South said in his response, the bass was never made to be played one finger per fret down there & it's best to start employing the third finger only after the 7th fret.

Best of luck with this - Let us know how you go on, Huw.

[OldGit]

There's a bunch of using powerballs ..
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=17079&hl=powerball"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...mp;hl=powerball[/url]
Maybe that can help .. or my friend is an Alexander Technique teacher in Cardiff if you want your body stance and mechanics sussed ...

OTPJ I'd like a copy of Thump if you have a spare

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote]OTPJ I'd like a copy of Thump if you have a spare[/quote]



I'll see if I can get it scanned for you this week, mate!

[Jase]

The only way to improve dexterity, stamina, strength, skill, etc is good old fashioned practice...isn't it??? Just had a quick look at the Powerball site....looks dangerous to me. I can understand a bit of fun and a laugh but to suggest it can help in tackling advanced playing techniques is utter madness....G********r? not even worth a mention in my book.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Huw' post='234566' date='Jul 7 2008, 10:34 PM']....My left hand is in agony....[/quote]
It's your body telling you to go and do something more interesting.

[Bilbo]

That squeezing balls stuff is a waset of time - hte strength you need to play the bass was in your hands by the time you were 3 years old. You need to look at your technique, particularly your wrists - are they straight? A bent wrist constricts nerves and vessels etc and doesn't help with managing pain. Do you need to wear your bass differently, higher or lower?

Alexander technique is very good for this kind of thing; it makes you focus your attention on the detail of your playing techniques and can provide you with comfortable solutions.

But, first and foremost, if it hurts, stop doing it. Hands takes a long time to recover and you don't want to do too much damage trying to 'work through the pain'.

My hands have been hurting for 8 years and occasionally, on a gig, I have to move positions just to manage the pain on repetetive parts (eg playing an ostinato in C on the E-string instead of the A). The pains rarely surface when I play jazz because you tend not to stay in one place on the neck for very long so RSI is less likely. Plus it is generally quieter and less physical music anyway so is more forgiving.

Maybe that's the answer - play more Jazz!

[TKenrick]

Don't forget that posture and hand positioning are a big factor when talking about playing-related pains. Check the way that you sit (or stand) to practice, and try and make sure that your body is as balanced as possible - weight equally on both feet, straight neck, level shoulders, keep your chest open and try and minimise any bending in the wrists. Try to be aware of any tension that you might be holding in your neck, shoulders or arms, as this won't help things either.

Check out Dave Marks' 'bad habits for bass' videos, there's one explaining why you shouldn't use one finger per fret when playing in first position.

Other than that it's just a big +1 on everything Bilbo said in his post, particularly about checking out Alexander technique (and playing more jazz!)

[Huw]

[quote name='TKenrick' post='234927' date='Jul 8 2008, 01:15 PM']Don't forget that posture and hand positioning are a big factor when talking about playing-related pains. Check the way that you sit (or stand) to practice, and try and make sure that your body is as balanced as possible - weight equally on both feet, straight neck, level shoulders, keep your chest open and try and minimise any bending in the wrists.[/quote]


I've been thinking about this in particular, recently. I'd like to sit down to practice, but usually end up getting perched on the edge of the sofa, which is very uncomfortable. I stood to practice last night, which is most natural, as I'm stood up to play most of the time.

What is everyone's practice space, or more specifically, their [i]seat [/i]like? I've been considering getting something like a drum stool so I can sit comfortably and play.

[cheddatom]

A stool would be better I think, but get one with a back!

I practice on the settee at home. For some reason if I play acoustic guitar/bass here, I get very bad cramp in my left hand. If I stand up - no problem. If I play electric (thinner) sitting down on the settee, again no problem. Weird!

[OldGit]

You may want to try resting your bass on your left thigh, with the body between your legs, left leg raised a bit, spansih guitar style. The angles of your left hand then change and are more relaxed ..

[Jase]

Posture, posture, posture...that's what I was told, by a body person. I'm still guilty of slumping over my bass sometimes though.

[WalMan]

[quote name='mr.sibs' post='234586' date='Jul 7 2008, 11:04 PM']i found both of those okay, as mentioned above, dont warm up in 1st position, thats a big no no, try 1234 starting 7th fret up[/quote]
You beat me too it. I tend to start warmups around the 10 or 12 fret and work down, having read an article years ago suggesting this as you are starting with smaller stretches and working up to larger, by which time you should be better warmed up

[TKenrick]

Generally I'd advocate practicing standing up over sitting down, as standing minimises the temptation to slump over the bass or bend the wrists excessively. One thing you could try is practicing in front of a mirror, checking your stance at regular intervals to see that your weight is equally distributed on both feet and you're not raising your shoulders when you play.

As for seating options, I use a kneeling chair (google it to see what I mean) so I can have the bass in exactly the same position as when I'm standing. If you're sitting down on a regular chair, wear a strap and have the bass resting on your left thigh. If it's not the right height either adjust your strap, use a footstool or put a cushion under the bass. This means that you're not having to use your body to balance the bass, leaving your arms free to play.


One last thing - regardless of whether you sit or stand to practice, think about the height of your music stand. Things get difficult if you're tall and stand up to play, as many music stands don't go high enough to allow you to have the music near to eye level to prevent lots of neck bending...

Here endeth the sermon.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

I used to get problems towards the end of a gig when we'd normally do a 100mph version of get "out of denver" with very fast bass line played fingerstyle. Often my hands would start hurting and sometimes my right hand would freeze up completely so I'd have to finish the song with my hand siezed up into a claw moving the whole hand from the shoulder like a big plecky.

My solution was to change my gain structrure so that the bass goes through a limiter and the amp is set much louder so that I don't have to hit the strings so hard to get the same volume out. I also built up the strength in my fingers with a red gripmaster. I can feel that my fingers are much stronger now and I don't have the problem any more.

[noisedude]

If you are having pain in your WRIST, get it looked at as a matter of urgency.

I found out the other day that an innocent sprain is actually a rupture that will probably end my musical career one way or another. Obviously most pain will be due to bad mechanics of positioning etc but your GP will check out your range of motion and any obvious weaknesses in grip or pressing forces and decide whether you need referring on.