Manufacturer 'signature tone'...

[Torben Hedstrøm]

Topic could have been raised before... But searching (in blindness somehow) for cabs to match a GB Shuttle 12.2, I have been reading all kind of opinions on the web, and as always the amount of material consumed is pretty much directly proportional to the level of confusion suffered.

As stated in my signature, I am currently using EBS gear. Always liked the sound of it somehow, A week or so ago I moved my Neo 210 up to ear level, to do get an impression of what it 'actually' sounds like on it's own. A real nice detailed sound, as long as it wasn't pushed beyond it's limits, but a surprisingly lack of actual low end (complements the 115 very nicely though !). Reading the specs the EBS 210 it covers down to 50 Hz. which sounds about right to me.

So getting to the point: Do different manufactures have a kind of 'signature tone' ?. I know they do in the world of HiFi, and reading on the web you will see alot of people thinking that, for instance, Aguilar has 'scooped mids' (what is that exactly ??). EBS has a reputation for being HiFi-sounding and so on.

How much of this is subjective to the brand you think ?... Anyone ever tried doing an actual blind test of... Say... Different 210 cabs ?. If manufacturers have a 'house tone signature' what would it be ?... My own very subjective impressions of the brands (pretty much purely based on prejudice) would be something like:
[list]
[*][b]EBS[/b]: Punchy, detailed, loud without being too sophisticated. A bit on the bright side of things. Good for Rock and metal...
[*][b]Aguilar[/b]: I somehow associate it with the sort of Motown old school sound. Never saw a metal bassplayer using Aguilar for instance...
[*][b]Epifani[/b]: Jazzy, Jaco like tone... Detailed and crisp without being too 'in your face'. Good for the sophisticated stuff.
[*][b]Hartke[/b]: Same ballpark as EBS, but less 'High end'. Played some Hartke stuff back in the 90's, and have fond memories of it actually.
[*][b]GK[/b]: Tough one... My impressions of the brand would be somehow loud, less detailed, distinct midrange, good for dirty stuff, but not very versatile.
[*][b]Mesa Boogie[/b]: Big sounding... Round, detailed, classic American old school rock... 'We are not afraid of large diameter drivers or Chevy V8's' - 'There is no substitute for air displacement' kind of attitude. I like it, but I don't want to carry it around
[*][b]MarkBass:[/b]One of the brands, where I was dead wrong... Up until very recently impression was 'mordern, middy lack of real low end tone'. Got my hands on a MB amp, and it was actually very round and punchy sounding - still maintaining detail.
[*][b]Glockenklang:[/b] When you pick a company name like that, you are asking for it...
[/list]
These are just some examples... There are ofcourse plenty more brands that I have a predefined opinion on.

Now, I am sure that I am not the only one who has these definitions... Branding being what it is, most of us are subjective to being biased I think. What are your experiences and impressions ?... Is there such a thing as a 'tone signature' from the major brands, and what would your predefined imprissions and/or experience be ?.

Regards.
Torben

[Guest bassman7755]

Personally I think its all hogwash. I'd be willing to bet that noone could reliably identify the brand of an amplifier in a blind listening test through the same speaker with flat EQ. All a typical bass amp is doing is taking a small voltage signal and making it louder with a relatively high degree of linearity and most of the difference between amps will be non-linear artifacts below the 45 db or so (unless your running the amp into its clipping region) threshold where human hearing generally cant detect them.

--- edit ---

There have been several studies that shown that in blind tests people cannot reliably identify coke and pepsi despite claiming to prefer one over the other. MRI scans have show that peoples brains react differently depending which one they think they are drinking (and not which one they are actually drinking) and hence their actual perception of taste varies according to what they think they are drinking. I personally think this effect accounts for about 80% of the supposed "special character" of audio equipment be it music amplification/hi-fi/whatever.

So to summarise: all any bass amp needs 1) to be able to apply some basic EQ 2) to provide some smooth clipping for those of us that like a bit of overdrive 3) to make it louder with decent linearity across a reasonably wide frequency range. Everything else is IMO perceptual bias as per the coke/pepsi stuff induced by marketing and personal preconceptions e.g. whether its got chicken head knobs or a bit of nice cloth on it then it must sound "warmer".

Edited February 22, 2014 by bassman7755

[Torben Hedstrøm]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1393077045' post='2375899']
There have been several studies that shown that in blind tests people cannot reliably identify coke and pepsi despite claiming to prefer one over the other. MRI scans have show that peoples brains react differently depending which one they think they are drinking (and not which one they are actually drinking) and hence their actual perception of taste varies according to what they think they are drinking. I personally think this effect accounts for about 80% of the supposed "special character" of audio equipment be it music amplification/hi-fi/whatever.
[/quote]

This was pretty much one of my major points... Blind testing usually comes up with some very surprising results . I would say, however, that when it comes to (good) HiFi equipment there definately is a tone signature specific to each manufacturer... Especially when it comes to speakers. But then again HiFi is a completely different approach to sound than pro. equipment... For instance you usually won't find eq controls on the better end of amps in the HiFi segment.

Regards.
Torben

Edited February 22, 2014 by Torben Hedstrøm

[VTypeV4]

I'd be interested to do a 'blind' A / B test..

I'm quite convinced I can hear a difference between Soundcraft and Allen & Heath mixing consoles even on a flat setting. It'd be really interesting to see if that 'percieved' difference is real or in my head..

[Guest bassman7755]

I think I've posted this a couple of times on various threads but its worth checking out if you havnt already ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

[Musky]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1393077045' post='2375899']
Personally I think its all hogwash. I'd be willing to bet that noone could reliably identify the brand of an amplifier in a blind listening test through the same speaker with flat EQ. All a typical bass amp is doing is taking a small voltage signal and making it louder with a relatively high degree of linearity and most of the difference between amps will be non-linear artifacts below the 45 db or so (unless your running the amp into its clipping region) threshold where human hearing generally cant detect them.

--- edit ---

There have been several studies that shown that in blind tests people cannot reliably identify coke and pepsi despite claiming to prefer one over the other. MRI scans have show that peoples brains react differently depending which one they think they are drinking (and not which one they are actually drinking) and hence their actual perception of taste varies according to what they think they are drinking. I personally think this effect accounts for about 80% of the supposed "special character" of audio equipment be it music amplification/hi-fi/whatever.

So to summarise: all any bass amp needs 1) to be able to apply some basic EQ 2) to provide some smooth clipping for those of us that like a bit of overdrive 3) to make it louder with decent linearity across a reasonably wide frequency range. Everything else is IMO perceptual bias as per the coke/pepsi stuff induced by marketing and personal preconceptions e.g. whether its got chicken head knobs or a bit of nice cloth on it then it must sound "warmer".
[/quote]

While your other points are completely valid, if you set very many amp's EQ to what is nominally flat (e.g. 12 o'clock) and run it through a frequency analyser you'll find that they are a pretty long way from flat. Some will only even approach a flat response at extreme settings. Many manufacturers do build a 'shape' into their amps, which may be over-ridden with judicious use of EQ but nevertheless the amp remains biased towards that tone.

How many people could distinguish between a Jazz and a Precision 100% of the time? Probably not many, if any, but it doesn't mean that there are no differences.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Musky

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1393092352' post='2376163']
While your other points are completely valid, if you set very many amp's EQ to what is nominally flat (e.g. 12 o'clock) and run it through a frequency analyser you'll find that they are a pretty long way from flat.
[/quote]

Agreed, I meant flat in actual response rather than all the knobs at 12'oclock.

[BigBassBob]

[quote name='Torben Hedstrøm' timestamp='1393068762' post='2375783']
I somehow associate it with the sort of Motown old school sound. Never saw a metal bassplayer using Aguilar for instance...
[/quote]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJQX4Ow2NHQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJQX4Ow2NHQ[/url]

[Torben Hedstrøm]

[quote name='BigBassBob' timestamp='1393094876' post='2376195']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJQX4Ow2NHQ[/media]


[/quote]

I stand corrected then (again)

[HowieBass]

You're looking at cabs to pair with a Genz Benz head right? I'm sure there are going to be differences between various cabs based on what drivers are in them and if they feature tweeters that can be adjusted and to make life simpler for myself I'd probably just go with a Genz Benz cab - I imagine that the head was probably tested (and optimised?) mostly with these anyway?

[Torben Hedstrøm]

[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1393092352' post='2376163']
While your other points are completely valid, if you set very many amp's EQ to what is nominally flat (e.g. 12 o'clock) and run it through a frequency analyser you'll find that they are a pretty long way from flat. Some will only even approach a flat response at extreme settings. Many manufacturers do build a 'shape' into their amps, which may be over-ridden with judicious use of EQ but nevertheless the amp remains biased towards that tone.
[/quote]

Entirely true... In the world of HiFi amps (of which I have owned quite a few) I would definately claim that there are major differences between the tone 'ideal' from manufacturer to manufacturer. Which is better or worse is another discussion all together . Besides frequency response (and emphasis) there is at least one other parameter affecting how I percieve sound: Dynamics... And dynamics spread over the frequency spectrum. Ofcourse this parameter is evidently greatly affected by the acoustic surroundings... But in my opinion also by the amp and speakers .

[Torben Hedstrøm]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1393096901' post='2376220']
You're looking at cabs to pair with a Genz Benz head right? I'm sure there are going to be differences between various cabs based on what drivers are in them and if they feature tweeters that can be adjusted and to make life simpler for myself I'd probably just go with a Genz Benz cab - I imagine that the head was probably tested (and optimised?) mostly with these anyway?
[/quote]

Exactly correct... However, we don't have GB in this particular area of the globe, and I am assuming that shipping a cab is significantly more expensive than an amp. So I was kind of beginning to look what is available locally .

[Torben Hedstrøm]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1393091884' post='2376160']
I think I've posted this a couple of times on various threads but its worth checking out if you havnt already ...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ[/media]
[/quote]

Yeap... Very much an engineering type of approach to the audio. They state some very good points, but they relate themselves mainly to the concepts of frequency and phase - Coming from a controlled source (a sound card for instance, or a preamp).

The only real comment they had on (room) acoustics I found quite interesting. After many many years of having tried/owned HiFi systems, varying greatly in value, I have have now ended up with speakers building on the omnidirectional concept. Hard to get that real pinpoint stereo image with them, but benefit is that they fill the room with sound in a way I have not experienced before, and they are not very sensitive to room placement of the listener. They do sound kind of funny though, if you move your ear into direct firing direction of the drivers... Completely off balance tonally .

Regards.
Torben

[LukeFRC]

Good question Torben

I wonder if it would be a good idea to approach it into two different directions - amps and speaker cabs.
It's kinda easier I find to think about the kinda school of tone each maker is shooting for in separate directions. Looking at some of the brands you've listed Hartke for instance have a reputation for really great amps, but less people seem to get excited by their cabs; a few years back Epifani were the vogue cab builder, and Glockenklang (or Bell sound if we translated it ) have a rep of really nice flat amps... but don't seem to stock their cabs anywhere.

[Torben Hedstrøm]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1393110811' post='2376404']
Good question Torben

I wonder if it would be a good idea to approach it into two different directions - amps and speaker cabs.
It's kinda easier I find to think about the kinda school of tone each maker is shooting for in separate directions. Looking at some of the brands you've listed Hartke for instance have a reputation for really great amps, but less people seem to get excited by their cabs; a few years back Epifani were the vogue cab builder, and Glockenklang (or Bell sound if we translated it ) have a rep of really nice flat amps... but don't seem to stock their cabs anywhere.
[/quote]

I think it would be a very good idea to divide the two, it makes sense .

Regarding amps, I got to thinking last night... It will be interesting to see how the Class D amps will change marketing. The analog amps still have some kind of design philosophy on the poweramp, but Class D is basically just modules... And the amp manufacturer properly doesn't build these in-house. So I guess the marketing will be on preamp and features ?.

Regards.
Torben

[Reverend]

Sorry, gotta cut in here - PEDANT ALERT! With reference to 'analog amplifiers'. Class D amps are analog amplifiers. Class D amps do not by definition convert analog audio into digital audio and back again. They still contains transistors, just like your big old GK 800RB or your EBS HD350 etc, the difference is a clever way of turning the transistors on and off to increase efficiency (hence the loss in weight!).

Class D amps ARE NOT BY DEFINITION 'DIGITAL AMPLIFIERS'. It's just a name that people have come up with, just like Class A, Class B, class A/B etc which categorises a particular design philosophy. I've had conversations with guys from Crown recently who've been telling me about their new Class I and Class J amps which can fit multiple hugely powerful amps onto tiny chips. But they don't contain any A-D or D-A conversion to do the amplification.

So in terms of Class D amps having no design philosophy, that's not true, otherwise all Class D amps would be the same, right? And clearly they aren't, and clearly some are crap and some are unbelievable. It's just that the parts are all very small, because the efficiency gain means that they can be small. Some class D amps do have built in digital EQ and effects, but there's no reason these couldn't be put into the audio path of a huge tube amplifier at the input stage. It's just a question of whether that would tarnish the perceived 'purity' of the brand or not. You'd never see a Matamp with a digital amp sim built in, but there's no reason why they couldn't do it.

Anyway. As you were :-)

[Torben Hedstrøm]

[quote name='Reverend' timestamp='1393150382' post='2376601']
Sorry, gotta cut in here - PEDANT ALERT! With reference to 'analog amplifiers'. Class D amps are analog amplifiers. Class D amps do not by definition convert analog audio into digital audio and back again. They still contains transistors, just like your big old GK 800RB or your EBS HD350 etc, the difference is a clever way of turning the transistors on and off to increase efficiency (hence the loss in weight!).

Class D amps ARE NOT BY DEFINITION 'DIGITAL AMPLIFIERS'. It's just a name that people have come up with, just like Class A, Class B, class A/B etc which categorises a particular design philosophy. I've had conversations with guys from Crown recently who've been telling me about their new Class I and Class J amps which can fit multiple hugely powerful amps onto tiny chips. But they don't contain any A-D or D-A conversion to do the amplification.

So in terms of Class D amps having no design philosophy, that's not true, otherwise all Class D amps would be the same, right? And clearly they aren't, and clearly some are crap and some are unbelievable. It's just that the parts are all very small, because the efficiency gain means that they can be small. Some class D amps do have built in digital EQ and effects, but there's no reason these couldn't be put into the audio path of a huge tube amplifier at the input stage. It's just a question of whether that would tarnish the perceived 'purity' of the brand or not. You'd never see a Matamp with a digital amp sim built in, but there's no reason why they couldn't do it.

Anyway. As you were :-)
[/quote]

I am certainly not going to embark in a passionate discussion on amplifier design. Admittedly I don't have the necassary expert knowledge on Class D (I,J...) designs to do so. When I think of Class D, I instinctively associate the term with the 'digital amplifier' products emerging in the HiFi world some years ago. I think the first ones was based on the PWM technology, and was referred to as digital...

Will we ever see a 'real' digital amplifier, effectively meaning an D/A converter capable of supplying the neccessary current at all times ?. Dunno... Maybe they already exist... If they are any good I could see alot of applications for them...

Regards
Torben

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Reverend' timestamp='1393150382' post='2376601']
Sorry, gotta cut in here - PEDANT ALERT! With reference to 'analog amplifiers'. Class D amps are analog amplifiers. Class D amps do not by definition convert analog audio into digital audio and back again. They still contains transistors, just like your big old GK 800RB or your EBS HD350 etc, the difference is a clever way of turning the transistors on and off to increase efficiency (hence the loss in weight!).

Class D amps ARE NOT BY DEFINITION 'DIGITAL AMPLIFIERS'. It's just a name that people have come up with, just like Class A, Class B, class A/B etc which categorises a particular design philosophy. I've had conversations with guys from Crown recently who've been telling me about their new Class I and Class J amps which can fit multiple hugely powerful amps onto tiny chips. But they don't contain any A-D or D-A conversion to do the amplification.

[/quote]

We some discussion around this on a previous thread. It seems that some class d amps use DSPs to calculate the pulse width which might make them arguably "half digital". However given that 24 bit conversion puts quantisation errors at -144db the distinction between this and analogue is largely moot.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Reverend' timestamp='1393150382' post='2376601']
Sorry, gotta cut in here - PEDANT ALERT! With reference to 'analog amplifiers'. Class D amps are analog amplifiers. Class D amps do not by definition convert analog audio into digital audio and back again. They still contains transistors, just like your big old GK 800RB or your EBS HD350 etc, the difference is a clever way of turning the transistors on and off to increase efficiency (hence the loss in weight!).

Class D amps ARE NOT BY DEFINITION 'DIGITAL AMPLIFIERS'. It's just a name that people have come up with, just like Class A, Class B, class A/B etc which categorises a particular design philosophy. I've had conversations with guys from Crown recently who've been telling me about their new Class I and Class J amps which can fit multiple hugely powerful amps onto tiny chips. But they don't contain any A-D or D-A conversion to do the amplification.

So in terms of Class D amps having no design philosophy, that's not true, otherwise all Class D amps would be the same, right? And clearly they aren't, and clearly some are crap and some are unbelievable. It's just that the parts are all very small, because the efficiency gain means that they can be small. Some class D amps do have built in digital EQ and effects, but there's no reason these couldn't be put into the audio path of a huge tube amplifier at the input stage. It's just a question of whether that would tarnish the perceived 'purity' of the brand or not. You'd never see a Matamp with a digital amp sim built in, but there's no reason why they couldn't do it.

Anyway. As you were :-)
[/quote] Good point on the "Not Digital" - but on the no design philosophy I don't think that is what Torben was getting at. From what I understand Class D amplifiers are hard to engineer compared to older types - what I think you find in Bass Amps is lots of bass heads all based around different power amp moduals - the B&O ice power one seemingly cropping up everywhere.
So if you look at a range of 10 bass heads and 7 of them have the same B&O ice power power amp inside... what you're paying for is the preamp and the box...

[xgsjx]

When you're trying to identify if an amp manufacturer has a signature tone or not, you need to take into account what is going into it.
E.g. You found Markbass very round & punchy, which I've heard that term used by many bassists to describe their rig. I think this has more to do with the bass.
If I put my bass straight into the amp (which is Markbass) on the bridge (J) pickup, then I'd have a very mid biased sound with no real low end (can be good for certain styles of playing).
If I then use the neck (P) pickup, it then gets a much bassier sound whilst reducing the mids a small amount.
If I then go through my fx board (which I normally do), then the chances of you telling what kind of rig I'm using without looking at it is pretty much impossible.

[Phil Starr]

As someone who has spent a lot of time designing and listening to speakers over the years it is quite clear to me that you can detect very small differences between cabs in A/B testing even a tiny resonance at a very narrow frequency range can jump out at you in a listening test. You can easily hear differences in amps in A/B tests and even in speaker cables.

Equally it is amazing how your brains can fool you into hearing something that isn't there. This is true of all our senses, I used to be a science teacher and you probably did a little experiment at school with hot, cold and warm water. Put one hand in the hot water for 60secs and the other in the cold, transfer them both to the warm and the 'hot' hand perceives it as cold and the cold hand perceives warmth. The same is true of sound put on a favourite track on your computer and turn the bass down just noticeably; obviously the song sounds bass light. Go on listening for a few minutes and turn the bass back to normal halfway through the song; it will sound bass heavy. Your brain has tone controls!

My poor kids have been used more than once for blind testing of my projects because when you've spent hundreds of pounds and weeks of time developing something it is amazing how easily you believe good things of it.

As bass players we all know the eq we set up in our homes often sounds terrible when playing with the band and that the sound in the rehearsal room is never like that at venues leading to much frantic knob twiddling. So, whether the minute differences we can detect are significant is a moot point. When shopping for a cab it is well worth spending time listening to speakers with your amp and your bass I would say, but don't expect the holy grail. Get something you like and then relax, the audience aren't really going to worry if you use Aguilar or Peavey unless you have a basschatter there.

[JapanAxe]

I'm not convinced by the 'signature tone' thing. There is a fair difference between the tones of the BF Midget and Compact, and between the Compact and the Super 12. In a blindfold test I could tell you there was a difference, and could probably pick out the Midget, which kind of suggests there isn't a signature BF tone.

I've never walked into a gig or rehearsal room while a band was playing, and thought 'that's a [fill in the blank] cab' before seeing the rig.

[Count Bassy]

I can understand that bass amps and cabs might deliberately go for a signature sound, but as a Hi Fi 'layman' I would have thought that the whole point of the system was to be completely transparent, and any hint of a 'signature sound' would thus be seen as a negative.

[Count Bassy]

And regarding the Class D digital thing I'd still maintain that as the output devices are essentially always ON or OFF (apart from the slew time) then, at that point, they are operating digitally. Yes it is then filtered to analogue by the amp and the electrical & mechanical characteristics of the speaker, but at some point in the amplifier it is in 1 bit digital form, even if that is PWM rather than multi-bit 'level' signal.