SevenSeas Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Dear Jazzers and fellow bass chatters. What do you do when you're struggling with certain walking lines, I have read and used Ed Fried lands walking bass book to write bass lines. Certain standards it's quite easy to walk around the changes, (using certain approaches, chromatic, scalar or using the chord tones) however for certain tunes I'm finding that it isn't working. I think this is often with repetitive chords but only slight changes in the harmony. i'e 'On Green Dolphin Street' (first four bars) therefore the strong guide tones aren't necessarily meant to be on the strong beats of the chord (once again I could be wrong here) or the slight change from major to minor harmony. Anyone got any ideas? (or other walking bass books I check out) If anyone has some good lines for these lines and is willing to share them that would be ace. (Here some other standards i'm working on) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenSeas Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 They were meant to be PDF files... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 [quote name='SevenSeas' timestamp='1393086323' post='2376076'] They were meant to be PDF files... [/quote] To open , save to computer and simply change the name of the file extension to .pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenSeas Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 [quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1393093946' post='2376185'] To open , save to computer and simply change the name of the file extension to .pdf [/quote] The file was already a PDF, thats what I can't understand. I had already exported it into a PDF file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 For sure However sometimes .pdf files when upload to the BC portal convert to .ipb extensions. Its to do with the platform software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I find it really useful to use iRealB App . I will quite frequently put in a couple of tricky chord changes and loop them over and over to try different ideas and really get to know the structural notes, harmonies etc. Theres a 'mixing desk' in the settings to alter the volume of piano, drums and bass up (or down if you want no bass line however the bass lines are quite imaginative and give some concepts , plus the lines change style and feel according to the rhythm base that is selected). Cant recommend iRealB highly enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencer.b Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 (edited) Sounds obvious but my advice would be transcribe some of the greats playing the changes in question , even if it's only little fragments. Amazing slow downer or transcribe programmes are pretty good. Edited February 23, 2014 by spencer.b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 There's a lot more sources of walking theory about than when I started out. But just consider an alternative approach. There is no substitute for getting the stuff firmly in your head. I collected my lines from all sorts of influences, principally jazz, but there was a lot of other good music about; popular music used the double bass to underpin the rhythmic content. Fats Domino's bassist had some great lines for instance. But getting back to the point, try to listen to some of the jazz trios and hear how the bass walks under the improvising pianist. The obvious place to start is anything by Oscar Peterson where Ray Brown's bass playing is a joy. If you can find Andre Previn's rendering of the My Fair Lady tunes you will hear Leroy Vinegar who is regarded as one of the best walkers. And there is this: A piano trio with Scott Lafaro playing bass. Not the tricksy stuff with Bill Evans that we know him for but just playing some great solid walking lines. [color=#000000][font=verdana, geneva, lucida,] [/font][/color][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXG4ES-4FiM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXG4ES-4FiM[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The important thing about walking lines is to relate what you are doing when you are walking to what is happening elsewhere across the piece being performed. I learned early on that learning lines from a book or even from transcriptions by the Greats often does not work because these set pieces, whilst technically correct, are not working 'in context'. It is about recognising what lines in your arsenal fit a given passage; this is something that you need to learn to do in real time, on the bandstand, and can only really be achieved by doing it. Also, a lot of the swing you get from a walking line is in your tone and not just in the notes. Some great lines can fail to work because of a thin sound whilst some massive cliches work astonishingly well because the sound is soaked in swing. A lot of subtle problems exist because lines use the wrong passing notes or start/end clumsily and the only way to get better at this is to keep trying, listening hard to what is going on around you and working on what you are trying to do in that endless quest for the perfect line. What I find interesting is how many times I go back to listen to the Greats and find the lines aren't 'all that' but the intention and swing are so intense, the details matter less than we think. Walking bass takes a minute to learn (what could be easier than straight quarter notes on the beat) and a lifetime to master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Not sure on Ed Freidland's book as I've never used it, but Joe Hubbards walking e-book was great for me. Really turned me onto his teaching, and the methods of thinking can be translated into many different styles, not just walking and jazz. However, all examples are just over a jazz blues so you have to use some initiative to apply it to other songs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenSeas Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 Okay here are some lines for two standards I've finished working on and i'm quite happy with those. So if anyone wants to steal use the lines they can or... wants to add to those lines thats great. Anyway I'll check out Scott Lafaro owns trio, rather than Bills (stuff which is awesome) and need to transcribe (especially analyse) more of Ray Browns lines. If anyone has some good lines for On Green Dolphin Street that would be awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenSeas Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 PDF files still not working. Has anyone read and worked on Ed Friedlands walking bass line book and could recommend another book with a slightly different approach. (Not that Ed isn't great because he is but i'm sure theres plenty of ways to 'play the changes'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 [quote name='SevenSeas' timestamp='1393190491' post='2377229'] PDF files still not working. [/quote] The files that you upload to BC will start life in .pdf but will be converted to .ipb to be hosted on here. Anyone who wants to open the file needs to download to their computer and change the ending back to .pdf and the file will open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 One thing which might be fun for you to look at is experiment with avoiding playing the root note of the chord on the first note of each bar. Good Job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenSeas Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 [quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1393191740' post='2377250'] One thing which might be fun for you to look at is experiment with avoiding playing the root note of the chord on the first note of each bar. Good Job [/quote] Yeah I should be more experimental, a lot of books recommended keeping to strong chord tones (R,5) on beats 3 and four but of course i'm sure theres many ways to approach this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubassman Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I guess thats the allure of Jazz - always chasing the notes that will sound perfect for that moment in time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencer.b Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The Ray Brown book is pretty good. I think beats 1and 3 are important ones for chord tones , like when you play a 2 feel then join them up with passing notes ( only one approach of many ) . There's a great site called jazz capacitor with loans of downloadable transcriptions , Ray Brown , Leroy Vinegar , PC etc , there a wonderful chambers solo on I Can't Give you anything but love that I got loads from in terms of enclosures and approach notes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 https://soundcloud.com/robert-palmer-1/on-green-dolphin-street A live quartet version of 'On Green Dolphin Street' I did recently (it is only an excerpt but gives you a flavour of what I do with OGDS). Interestingly, I find the tune to[size=4] be a game of two halves; lots of space to develop interest on the pedals but lots of chords on the second eight bars which can tie your ideas down a little (two chords a bar can be difficult to do anything with without sacrificing the harmony).[/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 [quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1393198431' post='2377358'] I guess thats the allure of Jazz - always chasing the notes that will sound perfect for that moment in time! [/quote] Spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatback Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (edited) I found Hal Galper's 'Forward Motion' a huge help. I've not even started to be able to put into practice, but the way of thinking really sticks with you. A good antidote to the mindless search for variety and interest in walking lines. [url="http://www.halgalper.com/forward-motion/"]http://www.halgalper...forward-motion/[/url] Edited February 24, 2014 by fatback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLoydElgar Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I personally wouldn't look for answers in a book. Experiment. There is no harm in it sounding crap as the positive side crap... is... you now know what not to play etc... I probably would start with knowing the triads of each chord with their inversions and how each triad relates to each other. then add passing tones for the musical side... as step 1.... Then I would extend them to full chords/ then experiment with a few lines for musical purpose... Whilst working on the bread and butter you can still add your favourite jam... -f Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtroun Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 [quote name='FLoydElgar' timestamp='1394233351' post='2389493'] I personally wouldn't look for answers in a book. [/quote] This. You're about to go to music college and you'll be positively inundated with information, but one of the key messages will be developing your ears to adapt to any situation. Play along to recordings of standards and compare your overall vibe to the players on the record. If there's something lacking then you'll probably want to have a deeper think about what makes their lines effective: is it the placement of the notes? How often do they use root notes and on what beats do they occur? Do they move mostly by step or are they using wider intervals to open up their lines? Part of what's going on in any given performance situation is the bass player is reacting, in the moment, to a horn player and a pianist and a drummer (for example) so you also need to think about the density of what the other musicians are playing. In my opinion, Paul Chambers is a good bass player to look at, particularly if you've already looked at Ray Brown a bit. Paul emphasises melodic shape in his lines, adapting to follow the direction of soloists. He uses a mixture of diatonic and non-diatonic notes to add colour and tension to the line and varies the different areas of the bass he's playing in. A while ago I transcribed Chambers' bass line from 'If I Were a Bell' on the 'Relaxin' album by Miles Davis, I'm going to go and have another look at it now since I've been reading this discussion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 What was interesting about PC was how rarely he played he broke the flow of quarter notes. That was why he swung so hard and had the best gigs!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I'd say use a book to get the rules under your belt. It is important that you can justify your choices. After that you can start doing what sounds good to you. There are some excellent players whose over-indulgence make things almost unlistenable, so bear in mind you are still playing an instrument that is supposed to be the foundation of the music. You can show off all over the bass and choose unusual notes to create tension, but be mindful you still need to swing and let the rest of the band know where the tune is at. Listen to Autumn leaves in the cannonball album "something else": Sam Jones rarely strays away from chord tones and passing notes and also repeats a lot of patterns, yet he swings so haaaaard that the tune is glorious. Just saying it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLoydElgar Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Get up to much bowin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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