Jazz Walking Bass Lines

[2wheeler]

I agree with Bilbo about underlining the difference, in On Green Dolphin Street, between the section with little harmonic movement and the section with lots of harmonic movement. Nostalgia in Times Square works a bit like that too.

I am curious to know what you mean by your approach not working. What do you want to hear from your line that you are not getting? The better you can answer that question, the closer you are to the answer.

If I were to start playing On Green Dolphin Street right now, I would use mostly, if not exclusively, chord tones whilst we are playing the tune. If playing in 4, I won't always change note every beat, so that my notes might change "in 2" even though I am playing crotchets. Keep it simple and outline the harmony. If it's a jam, you can't be sure how well everybody knows the tune so this is the time to be super clear. Roots and fifths are the framework and the rest fits in around those key notes.

As the solos get going, I would expect to introduce other notes from the scales in a linear way, then adding some more chromaticism if it feels good under the particular soloist. Don't feel pressured to get too fancy. Nobody will thank you for it. At some point I will definitely pedal Eb for the first 7 bars (maybe popping up the octave now and again), probably under a "vigorous" solo. That's just a great line to play and it is gifted to you in the writing.

Apart from that, just play and see what happens. There is a descending line through the first 7 bars G, G, Gb, Gb, F, E, Eb and I would probably highlight that at some point. You could alternate between Eb and those notes in 4 (of course, there is no alternation in bar 7 as you just play Eb four times) and have a great line, resolving to an E on the first beat of the C7 in bar 8.

One more point, try to never go to 100%. You never know when the soloist is going to hit yet another gear and you might need something in reserve

[SevenSeas]

All great advice....

Used several different approaches and found the sound I wanted for On Green Dolphin Street.

Anyway forgetting all that, had my first double bass lesson with one of the Trinity teachers. Don't want to give any names but their whole concept of jazz bass playing was phenomenal , I mean they ripped my playing apart. I have a lot of work to do. I mean I think it can be rare to find a teacher who is an amazing teacher and a really amazing player.

Can't really go into all the exercises I've been told to do but to some it up;
1. Learn everything by ear, transcribe, transcribe, transcribe.
2. I got a lot of bowing work to do and some pretty good exercises.
3. Listen to as much jazz as physically possible.
4. Make sure you're listening to the right guys.

Theres more then that to go into.. but would take a long time.

[2wheeler]

When you have done all that, go and see what Victor Wooten says about note choice. It's only one tenth of playing music

[fatback]

[quote name='SevenSeas' timestamp='1394667267' post='2393968']
All great advice....

Used several different approaches and found the sound I wanted for On Green Dolphin Street.

Anyway forgetting all that, had my first double bass lesson with one of the Trinity teachers. Don't want to give any names but their whole concept of jazz bass playing was phenomenal , I mean they ripped my playing apart. I have a lot of work to do. I mean I think it can be rare to find a teacher who is an amazing teacher and a really amazing player.

Can't really go into all the exercises I've been told to do but to some it up;
1. Learn everything by ear, transcribe, transcribe, transcribe.
2. I got a lot of bowing work to do and some pretty good exercises.
3. Listen to as much jazz as physically possible.
4. Make sure you're listening to the right guys.

Theres more then that to go into.. but would take a long time.
[/quote]

Confidence building or confidence-wrecking?

[ubassman]

...dont forget to enjoy making music!

[Bilbo]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1394717646' post='2394351']
...dont forget to enjoy making music!
[/quote]

Careful, sunshine!! This is Jazz we are talking about!!

[ubassman]

...oops sorry forgot that !!

Easy remedy though...

[Hector]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1394709117' post='2394195']
Confidence building or confidence-wrecking?
[/quote]

Depends on the type I reckon! Misplaced confidence needs to be ignored, and genuine confidence (in yourself and in others) needs to be earned. Sometimes those lessons where you're almost ashamed at how little you truly know about the bass and playing music are the best ones for motivating you.

I think every artist (of any kind) goes through a relatively long phase (sometimes returning to this phase) of creating things that aren't quite up to the standards we have in our heads, that somehow don't match up to what we're trying to produce. In this context, the mindset of a musician is a tough balancing act: enough insight and self-criticism to recognise areas to improve in to get your playing closer to that ideal, but going easy enough on yourself to still enjoy it and accept the level of music you're currently making.

Andrew, I'd love to know who it was gave you this lesson...? PM me if you want.

[ubassman]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1394721471' post='2394409']
Depends on the type I reckon! Misplaced confidence needs to be ignored, and genuine confidence (in yourself and in others) needs to be earned. Sometimes those lessons where you're almost ashamed at how little you truly know about the bass and playing music are the best ones for motivating you.

I think every artist (of any kind) goes through a relatively long phase (sometimes returning to this phase) of creating things that aren't quite up to the standards we have in our heads, that somehow don't match up to what we're trying to produce. In this context, the mindset of a musician is a tough balancing act: enough insight and self-criticism to recognise areas to improve in to get your playing closer to that ideal, but going easy enough on yourself to still enjoy it and accept the level of music you're currently making.

Andrew, I'd love to know who it was gave you this lesson...? PM me if you want.
[/quote]

+1 ...excellent advice there Hector

[fatback]

[quote name='Hector' timestamp='1394721471' post='2394409']
Depends on the type I reckon! Misplaced confidence needs to be ignored, and genuine confidence (in yourself and in others) needs to be earned. Sometimes those lessons where you're almost ashamed at how little you truly know about the bass and playing music are the best ones for motivating you.

I think every artist (of any kind) goes through a relatively long phase (sometimes returning to this phase) of creating things that aren't quite up to the standards we have in our heads, that somehow don't match up to what we're trying to produce. In this context, the mindset of a musician is a tough balancing act: enough insight and self-criticism to recognise areas to improve in to get your playing closer to that ideal, but going easy enough on yourself to still enjoy it and accept the level of music you're currently making.

Andrew, I'd love to know who it was gave you this lesson...? PM me if you want.
[/quote]

Agree totally. I asked though because one test of a great teacher in any game is that they can help identify your weaknesses without damaging your spirit. In the end, it's your own voice you're searching for, and carefree enjoyment is a big part of that.

[Hector]

I see what you mean for sure, a good teacher should inspire and should be constructive in their criticism. Nobody wants a teacher who puts students off by making them feel incapable, or who fails to encourage. But equally who wants to teach someone who isn't mentally prepared to take criticism? To an extent the analogy holds that good tools are made in the furnace. Bird became the musician he was after being laughed off the bandstand.

As someone who both does a fair bit of (non-music) teaching and also studies music/bass privately, I've found that it's a two-way street and would caution placing too much focus on a teacher's abilities to inspire endlessly, or pander to students who don't have the right attitude. The process of teaching is a very difficult and heterogenous one, but at it's essence is an interaction of both teacher and student. By definition it involves some acceptance that there is something to learn on the part of the student. That the student is not yet what they could be. The role of the teacher is not that of the validator, of someone to simply say "yes, that's good"and to give them enough bits of qualification paper - they're there to criticise constructively and help realise the potential of their students.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Hector

[fatback]

For sure. Maybe a bit of a generational difference too. My generation tended to get whacked about the head and told we were useless. The current lot maybe get their confidence boosted at the expense of their grip on reality.

[gypsyjazzer]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1393152225' post='2376632']
The important thing about walking lines is to relate what you are doing when you are walking to what is happening elsewhere across the piece being performed. I learned early on that learning lines from a book or even from transcriptions by the Greats often does not work because these set pieces, whilst technically correct, are not working 'in context'. It is about recognising what lines in your arsenal fit a given passage; this is something that you need to learn to do in real time, on the bandstand, and can only really be achieved by doing it. Also, a lot of the swing you get from a walking line is in your tone and not just in the notes. Some great lines can fail to work because of a thin sound whilst some massive cliches work astonishingly well because the sound is soaked in swing. A lot of subtle problems exist because lines use the wrong passing notes or start/end clumsily and the only way to get better at this is to keep trying, listening hard to what is going on around you and working on what you are trying to do in that endless quest for the perfect line. What I find interesting is how many times I go back to listen to the Greats and find the lines aren't 'all that' but the intention and swing are so intense, the details matter less than we think.

Walking bass takes a minute to learn (what could be easier than straight quarter notes on the beat) and a lifetime to master.
[/quote]

Bilbo's coments are spot on. The greatest swing rhythm section ever was the Basie rhythm section--sounds so easy--4 in the bar--but it takes a lifetime to master.

[bassace]

Well, yes, there have been other great rhythm sections but I tend to agree re Basie. The constant was Freddie Green who had the good grace to stay mainly on the top four strings of his guitar leaving plenty of room for the bounce of the bass to be projected.

Otherwise +1 to Rabbie re Sam Jones for his work with Cannonball Adderley. In The Jazz Bass Book, John Goldsby writes........'Sam Jones should be remembered as one of the great bassists because he always made the band sound good. He wasn't a flashy soloist but his sound and feel made him very popular with his fellow musicians.' When I started there weren't any jazz teachers about. Sam Jones was my teacher via the records I used to listen to.

[ubassman]

I dont know if others will agree but I have always found really intriguing contradictions with jazz - you have to be intelligent but not too clever, you have to drive the swing but then back off and create space when appropriate, you can end up playing well trodden patterns and be described as predictable or do something inventive that just sounds wrong or over complicated, when the music can be anything it does n't need to be everything and so and so forth.

I did a jazz weekend at the Shoe Factory with Nick Wheldon a couple of years back and a really helpful thing that came out of that was to trust the vibe to help make the musical choices. If you cant feel a vibe then it becomes mechanical playing.

Building a vocabulary and an approach to playing is probably a lifetimes adventure but the end game should always be about making great music.

[Jezyorkshire]

have to agree Peter, its important to not get too frustrated and accept where you and work on a plan to get where you want to go, consistency is very important as i know lol, above all playing something you can enjoy where you are at the moment and working on basic skills till they are internalised, as ive got back into double bass recently am having great fun playing in a country/bluegrass band but working on the basics and developing skills

[fatback]

Also (tin hat on) there's always that danger in jazz that people play mainly for the approval of other players and worst of all for players of their own instrument.

Edited March 14, 2014 by fatback

[ubassman]

[quote name='fatback' timestamp='1394810115' post='2395505']
Also (tin hat on) there's always that danger in jazz that people play mainly for the approval of other players and worst of all for players of their own instrument.
[/quote]

Theres definitely that pit fall - the Nick Wheldon weekend clinic was a prime example - there was a sense that you had to be more interesting than the previous guys solo ...oneupmanship in front of ones peers is not always a good recipe for interesting music

Its tough being constantly on show at College studying anything creative arts related subject where there are no 'right answers' in the back of a book and where you are expected to make progress and get things right within the tutors terms of reference.


For me a really good tutor is someone who inspires and motivates ...but aims to ultimately work themselves out of a job . I am always really wary of any tutor / mentor who is more important than the student but there is always that possibility just by definition - one person is in the know and in charge ...the other person is there to learn.

The key thing is mutual respect and I guess thats what you call 'clicking' with someone. A good tutor will love that they are being pushed by a hardworking student who is self motivated and hungry and wants to draw out more from their tutor. I had the real privilidge of briefly meeting Paul Ellison when he was over in the summer and a more generous man with his knowledge (and humble to boot) would be hard to find.

Because Jazz is so open ended the basic approach I would hope for from any tutor is 'Nurture not neuter' ( you need your 'Cojones' intact for jazz )!

[gypsyjazzer]

[quote name='bassace' timestamp='1394791857' post='2395221']
Well, yes, there have been other great rhythm sections but I tend to agree re Basie. The constant was Freddie Green who had the good grace to stay mainly on the top four strings of his guitar leaving plenty of room for the bounce of the bass to be projected.

Otherwise +1 to Rabbie re Sam Jones for his work with Cannonball Adderley. In The Jazz Bass Book, John Goldsby writes........'Sam Jones should be remembered as one of the great bassists because he always made the band sound good. He wasn't a flashy soloist but his sound and feel made him very popular with his fellow musicians.' When I started there weren't any jazz teachers about. Sam Jones was my teacher via the records I used to listen to.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree with bassace--Freddie Green was one of the main contributors to the Basis sound. He got his sound from playing mainly on the 6th/4th and 3rd strings--the 4th string being the main string. He played basic (No pun intended!) chords knowing that other members of the band would be playing the upper added notes. Freddie's sense of timing was immaculate--he was noted for that--highly praised by the Basie guys.
Go to Freddie's web site and read all about 'The master of rhythm guitar'--www.freddiegreen.org. And read about his [b]one note chord[/b] (Yes--no typing error!) he sometimes used to play. He was the man!
Yes--regarding Sam Jones--He had a real solid sound and swung like ---well you name them---he was with those guys.

Edited March 14, 2014 by gypsyjazzer

[mtroun]

Sorry to be a pedant but it's Nick Weldon, not Wheldon! One of the most inspiring teachers I have met!

[ubassman]

[quote name='mtroun' timestamp='1394927344' post='2396893']
Sorry to be a pedant but it's Nick Weldon, not Wheldon! One of the most inspiring teachers I have met!
[/quote]

...I stand corrected Mark ! (I suspect I cant blame it on the spell check can I ? )

I found Nick to be just one of those rare people that you meet for the first time and you feel like youve know him as a close friend for years, the sort of guy that would do anything to help you on your way. Talented musician , kind , patient, charitable with his knowledge ....inspiring guy as you rightly say!

[timbass]

Must get to Rushden to try a Nick Weldon workshop sometime - my friend Sid Thomas, whom I make sounds with occasionally, has been there a couple of times and speaks very highly. Earlier in this thread [b]spencer.b[/b] recommended [url="http://www.jazzcapacitor.com/transcriptions.html"]Jazz Capacitor[/url] - (thanks for that tip spencer. a great web site with transcriptions where you will find this great bit of "Walkin'" by Raymond Matthews Brown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHp1zs3U8iU
for me it does not get much better than that: simple, effective and just so beautifully cool.

[gypsyjazzer]

Thanks 'bassace' for posting that audio of 'The Legendary Scott Lafaro'. His sound is so solid and he swings so hard--'Yeaaaa!!!!. One of the greats.

[The Jaywalker]

One of the best things you can do for your walking lines is learn concepts. Learn about triads and upper/lower chromatic approach notes as a basic start. Then compose lines either on the bass, or write them out and play them later. Keep what you like, discard what you don't. Find a concept for 2 or more bars of one chord, eg, bar 1 starts with a root and bar 2 with 5th. Figure out some possibilities with roots and other chord tones. Work out or compose lines, keep what you like etc etc. You can revisit each concept in a more advanced way as time progresses eg, figuring out strong lines which don't have a root on beat 1 but which still outline the "sound"; using chromatic approaches to other chord tones on beat 1 or inside the bar etc etc. Eventually you can expand your repertoire to the point where you can play a line through changes, using various concepts, that continually ascends, continually descends, is repeatedly heavily chromatic followed by an interval leap etc etc
A great way to augment this idea of learning walking concepts is to transcribe and analyse lines. Also, there's been no mention of Ron Carter on this thread so far - absolute walking master! Get hold of his transcribed Aebersold basslines and analyse the hell out of them. If you do this alongside conceptual study, you'll discover that you're using the same formulae/concepts as the Masters. It's a good feeling to cast your eyes over a transcription and see one of your "own" lines!