Finger Memory

[xilddx]

If you need to learn a difficult phrase or passage using a fingering or a technique you are not practiced at, averagely how many times do you need to play it before you can do it without thinking? Do you find you get tangible plateaus and breakthroughs?

The most extreme one I had was trying to learn 32nd note (sorry Bilbo, hemi demi semi quaver ;-) flamenco tremolo technique. I was so slow for ages, then suddenly in the space of half an hour I could do it really fast and cleanly, automatically.

At a guess, I find it's about three to five hundred times for something I find difficult, starting at very slow tempo and focusing very hard on perfect execution.

How about you?

[teen t-shirt]

for me it entriely depends on the pattern and speed...

for me i try to imagine my bass lines as shapes and if i can make it a shape then i can normally get it fairly easyily...

right now i'm experiemting more with open stringed notes and so it's breaking up my technique these take longer for me to learn...

[Sarah5string]

I always remember things with my mind?

[lowhand_mike]

seeing as my head's up me arse its quite far from me fingers so it can take a while.

really varies on the song and the shape of the notes to my fingers

[cheddatom]

Being able to play something without thinking about it is not the same as your fingers being able to remember something (which just doesn't happen).

[Bilbo]

Depends what it is.

If you learn your scales and intervals throughly, it is often easier to get something down because it is a variation on something you have already done. If its a new technique that's completely alien to you, it'll take a whole lot longer. If you can practice something repetetively over and over again for hours, its going to happen quicker than if you can try it for 15 minutes a day.

Personally, I think there are some techniques that you have to really want to get into to warrant spending the time. I don't like two handed tapping so the time I would need to spend to get to do it like Michael Manring would be prohibitive for me. I am also not that fond of slapping although I can do that to a certain level. But to get it up to Wooten standards wouldn't be worth my time as I don't want to do that kind of stuff. Yet new Charlie Parker heads take me about 15 minutes because I have worked out so many and, consequently, they are all fairly accessible. Its horses for courses again.

I once entered Donna Lee onto Sibelius backwards to see if it would sound like anything. I tried to learn it - you think its hard the right way round!! Great exercise tho

[Sarah5string]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='235074' date='Jul 8 2008, 04:37 PM']Being able to play something without thinking about it is not the same as your fingers being able to remember something (which just doesn't happen).[/quote]
How exactly do you not think about what you're playing though?

[Galilee]

I have to get stuff 'into my fingers' so that I can play and sing. It can take a hell of a long time, especially if the vocal line is accently differently to the bassline.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Sarah5string' post='235081' date='Jul 8 2008, 04:45 PM']How exactly do you not think about what you're playing though?[/quote]

If you know something "off by heart" then it's stored in your subconscious somewhere. You can start off playing, and then not "think" about what you're playing. For example, lots of people play infront of the TV, and don't actually listen to what they're playing, but still play perfectly.

To what extent this is acheivable is something i'm not aware of, and I'd say I am naturally skeptical about things like this.

Another more common example, is where someone cannot remember a bass line that they know. However, when they start playing the song, it "comes back to them" and they play it perfectly. Whether or not they're actually thinking about what they're doing......... It's pretty pointless to play without listening to yourself IMHO.

It's just i've seen the phrase "finger memory" around quite a bit, and I don't like the way people misinterpret it (if it has a real meaning?). I'm no expert.

Edited July 8, 2008 by cheddatom

[Sarah5string]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='235095' date='Jul 8 2008, 04:56 PM']If you know something "off by heart" then it's stored in your subconscious somewhere. You can start off playing, and then not "think" about what you're playing. For example, lots of people play infront of the TV, and don't actually listen to what they're playing, but still play perfectly.

To what extent this is acheivable is something i'm not aware of, and I'd say I am naturally skeptical about things like this.

Another more common example, is where someone cannot remember a bass line that they know. However, when they start playing the song, it "comes back to them" and they play it perfectly. Whether or not they're actually thinking about what they're doing......... It's pretty pointless to play without listening to yourself IMHO.

It's just i've seen the phrase "finger memory" around quite a bit, and I don't like the way people misinterpret it (if it has a real meaning?). I'm no expert.[/quote]
Hmmmmm..... interesting. See me, I can't even talk to anyone without mucking up....

[OutToPlayJazz]

The key isn't how long it takes, it's actually making sure that the fingering pattern is consistant, ie., the same every time! It's only then that your mind will assimilate the pattern. Also, make sure your fingering is the most economical and efficient way of getting around the passage. Forget looking flash flying up and down the 'board, just find the easiest route with the least left hand movement.

Rich.

[phil_the_bassist]

With the whole "finger memory" business, isn't it a kinda version of reflex action? For example, I find 'I Wish' and 'Stuck In The Middle W.Y.' are pretty repetitive and formulaic, and I can order a pint and have a conversation whilst playing them, even if we go off on a bit of a jam... yet if I intently concentrate and think about every note I play I quite often stumble.

It seems (imho) that once I trigger the 'I Wish' "reflex" then it seems to play itself.

Does this make sense to anyone


[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='235110' date='Jul 8 2008, 05:07 PM']Forget looking flash flying up and down the 'board, just find the easiest route with the least left hand movement.[/quote]
That's what I'd call looking flash!

Edited July 8, 2008 by phil_the_bassist

[xilddx]

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='235110' date='Jul 8 2008, 05:07 PM']The key isn't how long it takes, it's actually making sure that the fingering pattern is consistant, ie., the same every time! It's only then that your mind will assimilate the pattern. Also, make sure your fingering is the most economical and efficient way of getting around the passage. Forget looking flash flying up and down the 'board, just find the easiest route with the least left hand movement.

Rich.[/quote]

That's how I approach it, most economic/comfortable fingering, very very slowly, making sure it's the same every time, 20 times, before speeding up a little and repeating the exercise. If I get it wrong, I have to start again at the same tempo until I get 20 right and then move on up a few bpm. Something I picked up from a Steve Vai routine years ago, augmented by a Howard Roberts book. Works for me.

Finger memory, to me, means I can play it and dance like an idiot without feeling like I am going to f*uck it up on stage.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='Sarah5string' post='235097' date='Jul 8 2008, 04:58 PM']Hmmmmm..... interesting. See me, I can't even talk to anyone without mucking up....[/quote]

yep i have the same problem, not too bad if its just root notes but other wise i have to keep me mouth shut, which is no bad thing.

[Sarah5string]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='235118' date='Jul 8 2008, 05:16 PM']yep i have the same problem, not too bad if its just root notes but other wise i have to keep me mouth shut, which is no bad thing.[/quote]
Ditto

[OutToPlayJazz]

[quote name='phil_the_bassist' post='235115' date='Jul 8 2008, 05:14 PM']With the whole "finger memory" business, isn't it a kinda version of reflex action? For example, I find 'I Wish' and 'Stuck In The Middle W.Y.' are pretty repetitive and formulaic, and I can order a pint and have a conversation whilst playing them, even if we go off on a bit of a jam... yet if I intently concentrate and think about every note I play I quite often stumble.

It seems (imho) that once I trigger the 'I Wish' "reflex" then it seems to play itself.

Does this make sense to anyone[/quote]

Yes, that's just your brain replaying stored patterns. I can still play every solo cello & double bass piece I ever performed in public from the age of 11 from memory. But I can't remember for the life of me what I ate yesterday! Funny how the mind works, eh?

[Norris]

"Finger Memory, How long does it take you to get something down?" - I find it takes slightly longer with each passing year

I can identify with phil_the_bassist. Often I'll be playing a number and accidentally engage the brain, at which point I'm f***ed. Practising over & over puts the lick into your subconscious, and the intrusion of conscious thought can be it's undoing.

Anybody else ever been engrossed in a track, then suddenly thought "Where the hell am I? What am I doing? Sh*t! What comes next?!"

[Jase]

[quote name='Norris' post='235282' date='Jul 8 2008, 08:20 PM']Anybody else ever been engrossed in a track, then suddenly thought "Where the hell am I? What am I doing? Sh*t! What comes next?!"[/quote]

I get that every gig, all the time.....I can never remember parts, song structures, find it difficult to count bars. I don't think my finger memory is much cop because whenever I play something it's always a bit different from the last time.

[Galilee]

[quote name='Norris' post='235282' date='Jul 8 2008, 09:20 PM']Anybody else ever been engrossed in a track, then suddenly thought "Where the hell am I? What am I doing? Sh*t! What comes next?!"[/quote]

That's exactly the kind of intrusive mental panic that makes you bugger stuff up, whereas if you don't think about it, your hands cope just fine.

[Bilbo]

Try Barry Green's 'The Inner Game of Music' - its about controlling that panic...

[Galilee]

Ah, it's not just me then.

[tauzero]

[quote name='silddx' post='235029' date='Jul 8 2008, 03:35 PM']At a guess, I find it's about three to five hundred times for something I find difficult, starting at very slow tempo and focusing very hard on perfect execution.

How about you?[/quote]
I go through it twice and if I can't get it, I give up. Although I did make an extra effort for "Dance the night away".

I call it "reclaiming my life".

[Bilbo]

Just noticed something worth mentioning in this thread.

I just went to a Dave Holland Transcription and tried to read it but was struggling to make sense of it in real time. I then picked up an imaginary 'air' bass (it was an imaginary Wal, of course) and tried to read it again, this time 'playing' the bass and moving my fingers according to instructions. Suddenly, the chart made sense. I struggled to read it without a bass in my hands and could read it easily with one (albeit not really).

What's [i]that[/i] about?

[Wooks]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='235842' date='Jul 9 2008, 04:23 PM']Just noticed something worth mentioning in this thread.

I just went to a Dave Holland Transcription and tried to read it but was struggling to make sense of it in real time. I then picked up an imaginary 'air' bass (it was an imaginary Wal, of course) and tried to read it again, this time 'playing' the bass and moving my fingers according to instructions. Suddenly, the chart made sense. I struggled to read it without a bass in my hands and could read it easily with one (albeit not really).

What's [i]that[/i] about?[/quote]
Some people can think better if they are mimicking the thing that they are trying to achieve.

[The Legoheads]

I almost always have to sleep on it... I can practice all day long but I'll end up getting worse before I get better... However, come back to it the next day and it just sort of clicks.