Tone: it's in more than the fingers

[Fionn]

I've read so many times, statements alluding to tone being "[i]all in the fingers[/i]".

Eh? ... Do folk really believe that?

Sure, "[i]the fingers[/i]", those endlessly minute intricacies and subtleties in touch and technique are huge in the equation ... but they aren't the whole. How could they possibly be?

It seems a bit flippant, to dismiss the role of technology and equipment in how we shape our sound. In choosing gear we are presented with an infinitely diverse range of variables with which to craft tone. Whether these variables are understood and worked with, or not, we've all got equipment which has it's own characteristics and limitations, and which greatly influences how we sound.

I've read the argument that (e.g.), "[i]Zender sounds like Zender whether he is playing a Warwick Streamer or a Fender P-bass[/i]". True, but that's the player. The "[i]fingers[/i]" element of the tone is recognisible and present, but on the whole the tone is very different. Zender didn't sound the same on stage with Ronson as he did with Jamiroquai, did he? ... or have my ears become bunged with wax in the time between?

Maybe it's just the cool thing, to don the omnipotent muso posture, [i]"I just plug in and play and get the tone I want".[/i] Great. Well, that's subjective to the individual and says nothing about the science of sound.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Fionn

[BigRedX]

Tone is in everything from how you pluck and fret the string all the way through to the acoustics of the room.

IME players are more recognisable through their note choices and phrasing than tone. A good player will adapt their tone to fit with what the other musicians are playing and the overall sound of the band.

Edited March 7, 2014 by BigRedX

[wateroftyne]

Absolutely.

When I play a Jazz, I sound like me... playing a Jazz.

When I play a Rick, I sound like me... playing a Rick.

When I play with rounds, I sound like me... playing rounds.

[SlapbassSteve]

I'd agree with this, looks like wateroftyne beat me to this point but I remember seeing a video ages ago of Geddy Lee playing a P-bass, with the caption along the lines of 'Geddy Lee doesn't need a jazz bass to get the Geddy Lee jazz bass sound'... in actual fact what it sounds like is Geddy Lee playing a P-bass. Likewise if he started using any other type of bass, it wouldn't sound just like GL, more like GL playing *bass X* through *amp Y*

It's the same with Flea, compare a track off BSSM to a track from Californication and both sound just like Flea but one clearly sounds like him playing a Wal/Musicman and one would clearly sound like him playing a Jazz... etcetc

[discreet]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1394195709' post='2388999']
...players are more recognisable through their note choices and phrasing than tone...
[/quote]

I'd largely agree with this. You'd know a Jamerson line even if he were playing a Ric through a Big Muff.

[ambient]

There's the inherent sound of the instrument, then there's the sound of the notes that you produce.

Your fingers aren't exactly the same as everyone else's, they will exert different pressure on the string, stay with the string a little longer or shorter before letting go.

Right and left hand nuances will make a difference as to the sound that comes from the speakers.

It'd be interesting to here a recording of 2 different people playing the same piece on the same bass. I'm guessing that you would hear the inherent instruments sound, but there would be an amazing difference still in the sound of the notes.

[Fionn]

You're all spot on. I just don't get how anyone could imagine that tone is all in the fingers. Perhaps they mean something else other than "tone"?

[Fionn]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1394196407' post='2389012']
There's the inherent sound of the instrument, then there's the sound of the notes that you produce.
[/quote]

Totally, that's what I'm alluding to. It's not just a single factor which determines tone,

[brensabre79]

I think it has often been said on here, and other places in response to the following sort of question...

I wanna sound like (insert artist). I bought his signature model bass, I got the same amp he is pictured with in Bass Nerd magazine, I'm even using the same strings. But it doesn't sound anything like him. What am I doing wrong?

[Fionn]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1394196833' post='2389024']
I think it has often been said on here, and other places in response to the following sort of question...

I wanna sound like (insert artist). I bought his signature model bass, I got the same amp he is pictured with in Bass Nerd magazine, I'm even using the same strings. But it doesn't sound anything like him. What am I doing wrong?
[/quote]

If, by accident of technique, he was doing that thing right, he'd approximate (e.g.) the "Steve Harris" tone better with the gear that Styeve Harris uses, rather than his dads old EB-1.

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1394195709' post='2388999']
Tone is in everything from how you pluck and fret the string all the way through to the acoustics of the room.

IME players are more recognisable through their note choices and phrasing than tone. A good player will adapt their tone to fit with what the other musicians are playing and the overall sound of the band.
[/quote]
This. Might as well lock this thread now.

[Bilbo]

I think the point is Bass 10%, strings 5%, pick-ups 3$, human being 82%. Of course gear makes a subtle difference but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the most significant element is the performer. The details created by the kit are barely discernable to the lay man and pretty much irrelevant in the overall scheme of things.

As I always say, what ever my bass sounds like on its own, one ride cymbal and those details are completely wiped out.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='SlapbassSteve' timestamp='1394195943' post='2389003']
I'd agree with this, looks like wateroftyne beat me to this point but I remember seeing a video ages ago of Geddy Lee playing a P-bass, with the caption along the lines of 'Geddy Lee doesn't need a jazz bass to get the Geddy Lee jazz bass sound'... in actual fact what it sounds like is Geddy Lee playing a P-bass. Likewise if he started using any other type of bass, it wouldn't sound just like GL, more like GL playing *bass X* through *amp Y*

It's the same with Flea, compare a track off BSSM to a track from Californication and both sound just like Flea but one clearly sounds like him playing a Wal/Musicman and one would clearly sound like him playing a Jazz... etcetc
[/quote]

But surely what you are recognising is the player within the familiar context of their own band and the music you know.

Would you recognise a Geddy Lee bass line from a Rush song you'd never heard before if it was in isolation and not as part of the overall music?

If someone was to re-record Flea's bass lines note perfect on BSSM with the rest of the Chilli Peppers on the tracks would you notice that it wasn't Flea playing?

I think the answer to both questions is a resounding "no".

Edited March 7, 2014 by BigRedX

[Musicman20]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1394199798' post='2389079']
But surely what you are recognising is the player within the familiar context of their own band and the music you know.

Would you recognise a Geddy Lee bass line from a Rush song you'd never heard before if it was in isolation and not as part of the overall music?

If someone was to re-record Flea's bass lines note perfect on BSSM with the rest of the Chilli Peppers on the tracks would you notice that it wasn't Flea playing?

I think the answer to both questions is a resounding "no".
[/quote]

Ay I agree.

There are certain characteristics that we all have as individuals, whatever we play. We might like octaves, we might like to play high up the neck, etc etc.

Certain players have a classic style that we can recognise. It does help with tone.

However, it isn't all about that.

[KevB]

There are probably plenty of examples of player x being the 'official' bass player in a band having parts replaced by player y on recordings and nobody was any the wiser. For example I'm hard pushed to hear really noticeable differences in the remasters of the first 2 Ozzy solo albums where Bob Daisley's basslines were replaced (along wth the drums too iirc).

[jazzyvee]

[quote name='Fionn' timestamp='1394195513' post='2388997']
I've read so many times, statements alluding to tone being "[i]all in the fingers[/i]".

Eh? ... Do folk really believe that?

Sure, "[i]the fingers[/i]", those endlessly minute intricacies and subtleties in touch and technique are huge in the equation ... but they aren't the whole. How could they possibly be?

[/quote]
I too don't believe it's all in the fingers. If that were true there would be no point in the various companies making amps basses, pickups outboard gear etc existing because you fingers would override all those technologies and sound exactly the same.

I have the view that many people confuse tone with note choices and phrasing and so think things sound the same because they are hearing the style of the player.
There are so many variables in the equation of tone and everything in the signal and audio chain between the physical impact of your fingers on strings and the sound reaching your ears affects what we perceive as tone. The fingers are merely one important component of that path.

[discreet]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1394197787' post='2389045']
The details created by the kit are barely discernible to the lay man and pretty much irrelevant in the overall scheme of things.
[/quote][size=4][quote name='jazzyvee' timestamp='1394203309' post='2389126'][/size]...If that were true there would be no point in the various companies making amps, basses, pickups, outboard gear etc...
[/quote]

Oh dear. In a rare lucid moment I can see that Bilbo is right and GAS is a construct promoted by the manufacturers of bass gear.
Just as in the wider world, advertisers create a false demand for products that we don't need - to further the aims of capitalism.

Arrrggghhh!! I've wasted years of my life looking for a 'tone' that doesn't exist and wasted thousands of pounds!! [size=4] [/size]

Edited March 7, 2014 by discreet

[ikay]

This vid is fairly conclusive evidence that the bass itself has at least something to do with it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFjA0cshhvc

[chris_b]

I used to play my Lakland 55-94 on every gig for about 7 years then I bought the Lull PJ5. You couldn't find 2 totally different sounding basses. On the first Lull gig I asked the guitarist what he thought of the new purchase. He said it sounds good but it just sounds like you. I was disappointed at first that he couldn't hear how wonderful the new bass was, then I realised it was a big compliment to me.

I know that I'll EQ any amp and bass to sound pretty much the same so saying, "it's in the fingers" is just a simplistic way of including the ears, the brain, the whole person.

Edited March 7, 2014 by chris_b

[discreet]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1394206921' post='2389180']
...saying, "it's in the fingers" is just a simplistic way of including the ears, the brain, the whole person.
[/quote]

Actually I reckon it's all in the balls.
Er... unless you're a female Basschatter, in which case it's probably boob-related. Or something.

Happy International Women's Day, everyone!! [size=4] [/size][size=4] [/size]

[tinyd]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1394205275' post='2389162']
This vid is fairly conclusive evidence that the bass itself has at least something to do with it - [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFjA0cshhvc[/media]
[/quote]

That's a good video - isolated, the basses sound really different. But in the second half when he's playing along with the tune they all sound very similar to me (with the exception of the J basses on bridge pickup).

[timmo]

If you use a small amp, say a cheap 10 watt practice amp, wouldn`t the tone be in the fingers. Is there an auto correct thing on amps to correct tone? I reckon the fingers must play a large part in the tone

[Lozz196]

Most of the musicians I`ve played in bands with all say I sound like me, whether I`m using a Precision, Jazz or `Ray, and totally irrespective of amp/cab.

My natural style makes for a very warm old-school sound, whereas if I change the attack of my pick, I can get instant Bruce Foxton/JJ Burnell, sounds like I`ve upped the treble on the amp, just by changing such a simple thing.

So I reckon the "tone is in your fingers" is a a fairly accurate statement.

[leroydiamond]

Heard my pre cbs Fender jazz being played by a mate last night and I feel he got a tone from that bass that was to die for and I could not ever replicate .

[steve-soar]

this.