teen t-shirt Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 My Grandad once told me that all music stems from Jazz now i listened to all sorts of music in my young life (17 years) and well to be honest i can't see where he was coming from... because jazz sounds completely different to say metal or rock, even Rap and R n B or am i missing something... can anyone care to shed any truth on this fact that was spouted from my (i think senile) grandfather.... god rest his soul.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Pickguard Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I'd say most a lot of modern music has more in common with a lot of blues, but then there's a massive crossover with blues & jazz, both coming from similar influences. What's the point in catgories in record shops (or whatever they call them these days) Do I look for Etta James in easy listening, soul, blues, jazz or rock? - I've found her CDs in all these sections. What the f*** is urban? and why is the R&B section full of spoken word/drum machine nonsense instead of Howlin'Wolf & Muddy Waters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hmmm... I would've said that all modern (popular) music stems from Ragtime & Blues forms. The traditional dixieland jazz was directly descended from ragtime as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teen t-shirt Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 but when we say stems what does it actually mean... what sort of progression does or would the music of gone through to go from say Blues to Rock... this is what confused me how can you go from one to anohter, was it the way things were played in one and were copied in another or was it the structure of the music?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 [quote]but when we say stems what does it actually mean... what sort of progression does or would the music of gone through to go from say Blues to Rock... this is what confused me how can you go from one to anohter, was it the way things were played in one and were copied in another or was it the structure of the music??[/quote] Well in that case, all (and I mean ALL!) music you are likely to play definitely stems from J.S.Bach's 48 preludes & fugues (The Well Tempered Clavier.) After all, this is the set of pieces that finally laid out the harmonic rules for the diatonic system - That is until Shoenberg & Stockhausen decided to break the rules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teen t-shirt Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 i see i've never heard of it.... but i'd still like to carry this on further and discover the origins of where this term came from... Jazz/Blues is the core of all music... i know it's a wide spread "genre" but surely something like lets say Slipknot or Bullet for my valentine couldn't have come from Jazz or Blues... for one Slipknot have a very varied arangement of instruments they have a drummer a percutionist two guitarists (i think) a bassist a "DJ" mixer fella and a keyboardist and vocalist if i remmember rightly... surtely it can't be true... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 No problem... Basically before Bach's WTC, all music was modal & quite limited harmonically. The WTC sorted it all out and set in stone all rules that make our music sound "correct" today. I definitely see what you're saying, though. All popular music whether jazz, blues, rock, etc, etc., has it's roots in the early twentieth century in terms of harmony/structure. I'd say it's definitely ragtgime/dixieland jazz. In fact, most of the dixie stuff has simple repetitive structure like popular music now, so your Grandad quite possibly has a very valid point there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 [quote name='dlloyd' post='236081' date='Jul 9 2008, 09:23 PM']for example from British folk music (which in itself was very blues influenced).[/quote] Umm... wrong way round, my man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teen t-shirt Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 "This is all grossly simplified of course." thankyou.... ok so basically all music stems from the black music of the era... interesting, sorry but i'd like to make this a full on debate i'd like to get everyones views on it... so if i took some jazz and played it with distortion or got my brother (our guitarist) to play it on his guitar with effects then it could turn from Jazz to Rock?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 [quote name='teen t-shirt' post='236070' date='Jul 9 2008, 09:06 PM']but when we say stems what does it actually mean... what sort of progression does or would the music of gone through to go from say Blues to Rock... this is what confused me how can you go from one to anohter, was it the way things were played in one and were copied in another or was it the structure of the music?? [/quote] St James Infirmary is a jazz song when Louis Armstrong plays it, a blues song when Bobby Bland plays it, and a rock song when Eric Clapton plays it. The progression from blues to rock was very simple. The chord changes in 50s rock n' roll songs were the same as blues changes. Then in the 60s with all the British blues-rock bands, blues became rock by the mere fact that white English guys with long hair played the same songs that black American guys had recorded earlier. The Rolling Stones, Cream, Fleetwood Mac, Led Zeppelin - these guys were all blues musicians, but because they were white and had bigger amps which were more heavily distorted, they were also known as rock musicians. Then Zeppelin, Sabbath, Deep Purple & all the others played heavier and heavier until it was known as heavy metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 (edited) In essence, yes. It all grew out of the negro spirituals - Music with basic chord structures (usually chords I, IV & V), again all linked to Bach's time with simple sections and well known, predictable cadences (the endings of sections/subjects.) Ie., Perfect cadence (V-I) "We're finishing", Imperfect cadence (?-V) "We're carrying on", Plagal Cadence (IV-I) "A-Men", etc... I could go on... But I won't! And yes, a lot of the jazz standards use slightly embelished versions of these chords & structures. Have a listen to Ellington's '"Take the A Train." Loads of blues/dixie influence there! Edited July 9, 2008 by OutToPlayJazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Mario_Bass Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 No, Music came from birds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 [quote]No, Music came from birds[/quote] Are you the BigBeefChief in disguise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 This is going to sound terribly predictable coming from me, but here goes: In the UK back in 1950-something, the banjo player from the then-incredibly popular Chris Barber Jazz band developed a little part of the show where he, the bass player and the washboard player played - and sang - high-energy negro worksongs. Pick a Bale of Cotton, Rock Island Line, etc. The general UK populace hadn't heard anything like it before. Rock Island Line was released as a single, it went STELLAR and then the young men who - in time - became The Rolling Stones, the Beatles, The Who etc., decided that they didn't want to be Bank Clerks or Bricklayers. They wanted to play guitars. ...and, along with Elvis over the pond, that's why we're here today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 [quote name='dlloyd' post='236097' date='Jul 9 2008, 09:44 PM']No sir! The sixties British Folk scene which spawned the likes of Bert Jansch (and, hence, Jimmy Page) was very blues influenced. There was a fantastic documentary a few years back hosted by Billy Connolly which investigated the history of the British Folk scene, concentrating on the early sixties revival, and they went into some detail about the influence of the likes of Big Bill Broonzy and Brownie McGhee on British folk musicians like Bert Jansch, John Renbourne and Davy Graham. I thought it would be on Youtube, but can't find it.[/quote] Fair point, but I was referring to British folk pre-revival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 [quote name='teen t-shirt' post='236013' date='Jul 9 2008, 07:31 PM']....My Grandad once told me that all music stems from Jazz....[/quote] Your Grandad was nearly right. Most of the "popular" music that we listen to today, including Jazz, has a direct line of influence that can be traced back to the blues music of the southern USA which was being performed at the end of the 19th century. The blues was the coming together of English and European folk music which existed in the US prior to slavery and the African music that was brought to the US by the slaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 If you are interested have a look at [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouMa Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 [quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='236060' date='Jul 9 2008, 08:42 PM']Hmmm... I would've said that all modern (popular) music stems from Ragtime & Blues forms. The traditional dixieland jazz was directly descended from ragtime as well.[/quote] Scott joplin rules! didnt he do the music for bullseye as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilmour Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 (edited) Hmmm, Interesting thread this, and I have to say tat yes modern western music can be charted back through Blues and Jazz, Ragtime, and Spirtual Slave music. I was interested in OutToPlayJazz's comments about Bach, I assume you are refering to melody and harmony rahter than Rhythm? As far as I'm aware the vast majority of western music prior to blues was more about harmonic movement than it was about rhythm? Of course a lot of African slaves brought very strong rhythmic traditions with them, which made their way into Blues (and Jazz et al.), listening to the charts today all the music is centered around the rhythm as much (if not more) than it is around the harmony and melody, especially R&B tunes. In fact I think you'd be hard pressed to find a song in the top 40 that's not in 4/4! Of course this is just my interpritation, not fact. [quote name='teen t-shirt' post='236077' date='Jul 9 2008, 09:18 PM']for one Slipknot have a very varied arangement of instruments they have a drummer a percutionist two guitarists (i think) a bassist a "DJ" mixer fella and a keyboardist and vocalist if i remmember rightly...[/quote] [quote name='teen t-shirt' post='236085' date='Jul 9 2008, 09:31 PM']so if i took some jazz and played it with distortion or got my brother (our guitarist) to play it on his guitar with effects then it could turn from Jazz to Rock??[/quote] I think this is a little to simplifed, it's more about the music's roots. Take the Slipknot example, they were nfluenced by a lot of heavy metal bands, for example Metallica, who in turn were influenced by the likes of Black Sabbath, who were originally a heavy Blues band called The Polka Tulk Blues Company! Obviously their inspiration was Blues bands from America, who were in turn influenced by early Blues, etc etc. All through out the evolution subtle changes have taken place to the chord voicings as well as the tone, effects and tempo of the songs,, and of course influences from multiple other artists/genres. Edited July 9, 2008 by gilmour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 [quote name='dlloyd' post='236097' date='Jul 9 2008, 09:44 PM']There was a fantastic documentary a few years back hosted by Billy Connolly which investigated the history of the British Folk scene, concentrating on the early sixties revival, and they went into some detail about the influence of the likes of Big Bill Broonzy and Brownie McGhee on British folk musicians like Bert Jansch, John Renbourne and Davy Graham. I thought it would be on Youtube, but can't find it.[/quote] I think it was Big Bill Broonzy who first sang about rock and roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 [quote name='dlloyd' post='236173' date='Jul 9 2008, 11:19 PM']it could conceivably be argued that all popular music can be traced to German polka music.[/quote] [quote name='gilmour' post='236200' date='Jul 10 2008, 12:03 AM']As far as I'm aware the vast majority of western music prior to blues was more about harmonic movement than it was about rhythm? Of course a lot of African slaves brought very strong rhythmic traditions with them, which made their way into Blues (and Jazz et al.), listening to the charts today all the music is centered around the rhythm as much (if not more) than it is around the harmony and melody, especially R&B tunes. In fact I think you'd be hard pressed to find a song in the top 40 that's not in 4/4![/quote] Are we going to argue about the origins of 'the backbeat' now? Polka sounds a bit more 2/4 to me than 4/4 with a backbeat. But however you feel about that, I'm pretty sure they didn't have blue notes in Polka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='236211' date='Jul 10 2008, 12:25 AM']....I think it was Big Bill Broonzy who first sang about rock and roll....[/quote] Rock and roll was a black slang term for sex from the 20's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teen t-shirt Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 [quote name='chris_b' post='236234' date='Jul 10 2008, 01:07 AM']Rock and roll was a black slang term for sex from the 20's![/quote] So does that hense mean that the term or phrase, Sex drugs and Rock and Roll actually = Sex drugs and Sex?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 (edited) [quote name='dlloyd' post='236099' date='Jul 9 2008, 09:46 PM']I was going to mention Lonnie Donnegan...[/quote] He had a far greater influence on the British popular music scene than he was given credit for. Before Lonnie and skiffle, I think it's far to say that young people made music in the formal sense - classical, silver bands and a few joined dance bands, very often under parental guidance and influence. Lonnie introduced self-taught DIY music - three chord guitars, tea chest basses and washboards. These DIY merchants then developed their skills and rock groups followed. I seem to remember that's how the Beatles started. The other seminal moment was when Hank Marvin played the intro to Move It. Suddenly everyone wanted to be Hank and sales of cheap solid electrics took off. The rest, as they say, is history. Jazz, now that's another thing. Chris Barber and Humph had a great influence. Edited July 10, 2008 by bassace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 [quote name='The Funk' post='236086' date='Jul 9 2008, 09:34 PM']St James Infirmary is a jazz song when Louis Armstrong plays it, a blues song when Bobby Bland plays it, and a rock song when Eric Clapton plays it.[/quote] And before that it was an English folk song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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