setting up a small home studio?

[budget bassist]

I'm currently on a music tech course at college and i'd quite like a small setup at home just to play about with and to record/mix my band with, i know all the practice and stuff, but nobody really told us what we'd need and how to do it if we were to make our own little home studio.

I have a computer with cubase on it, if i bought a smallish mixer with a USB output on it, such as [url="http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/peavey-pv-14-usb/70304"]this[/url] maybe, would i be able to plug that straight into my computer and have it communicate with cubase, or would i need some sort of audio interface?

I'm also planning on getting a pair of cheapish active studio monitors, i'm assuming i can just plug them straight into the desk or something?

I'll get some mics for it later (anybody know if the shure sm48s or PG58s and 57s are any good as a cheap alternative to the SM58s and 57s?) as at the moment i can DI my bass amp, or borrow some mics off friends, but mainly at the moment i'll concentrate on mixing.

thanks in advance for any advice, and sorry if this is in the wrong place, feel free to move it.

[Biggsy]

That Peavey looks like it only carries a stereo channel to the computer, so only really good if you're going to be recording one thing at once, as it won't separate the tracks for Cubase to use. If you want to be able to record guitar, drums and bass at the same time (for example), but edit them separately in cubase, you'll need an interface that specifies more separate channels of output via the USB.

Firewire seems to yield the best value for multitrack interfaces, if your computer has it I'd highly reccomend this:
[url="http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/onyx-1220/12617"]Mackie Onyx 1220: New[/url] (You'd need to include the firewire interface at the bottom of the page)
[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mackie-Onyx-1220-12ch-analogue-mixer-firewire-option_W0QQitemZ270252888440QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item270252888440&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318"]Mackie Onyx 1220: Used[/url] (Includes the firewire interface by the looks of it)
An added bonus is that it has decent pre's, that you'd probably otherwise soon find yourself needing.

I think there are USB alternatives but I don't know much about them to reccomend anything, but I imagine they'd probably have to use USB 2.0 to have enough bandwidth to support multitracking, like [url="http://www.inta-audio.com/products.asp?partno=mix-d-edim16dx"]this one[/url].

As for the monitors, actives will connect directly with no problem.

I hope that helps in some way, I only have limited experience, hopefully other people will have more ideas to mull!

Edited July 9, 2008 by Biggsy

[YouMa]

[quote name='budget bassist' post='236161' date='Jul 9 2008, 11:04 PM']I'm currently on a music tech course at college and i'd quite like a small setup at home just to play about with and to record/mix my band with, i know all the practice and stuff, but nobody really told us what we'd need and how to do it if we were to make our own little home studio.

I have a computer with cubase on it, if i bought a smallish mixer with a USB output on it, such as [url="http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/peavey-pv-14-usb/70304"]this[/url] maybe, would i be able to plug that straight into my computer and have it communicate with cubase, or would i need some sort of audio interface?

I'm also planning on getting a pair of cheapish active studio monitors, i'm assuming i can just plug them straight into the desk or something?

I'll get some mics for it later (anybody know if the shure sm48s or PG58s and 57s are any good as a cheap alternative to the SM58s and 57s?) as at the moment i can DI my bass amp, or borrow some mics off friends, but mainly at the moment i'll concentrate on mixing.

thanks in advance for any advice, and sorry if this is in the wrong place, feel free to move it.[/quote]
My samson audio monitors were cheap and sound excellent,they are also built like tanks,they won an award in future music,i thing they sound better than my mates expensive tannoys.

[Prosebass]

[quote name='budget bassist' post='236161' date='Jul 9 2008, 11:04 PM']I'm currently on a music tech course at college and i'd quite like a small setup at home just to play about with and to record/mix my band with, i know all the practice and stuff, but nobody really told us what we'd need and how to do it if we were to make our own little home studio.

I have a computer with cubase on it, if i bought a smallish mixer with a USB output on it, such as [url="http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/peavey-pv-14-usb/70304"]this[/url] maybe, would i be able to plug that straight into my computer and have it communicate with cubase, or would i need some sort of audio interface?

I'm also planning on getting a pair of cheapish active studio monitors, i'm assuming i can just plug them straight into the desk or something?

I'll get some mics for it later (anybody know if the shure sm48s or PG58s and 57s are any good as a cheap alternative to the SM58s and 57s?) as at the moment i can DI my bass amp, or borrow some mics off friends, but mainly at the moment i'll concentrate on mixing.

thanks in advance for any advice, and sorry if this is in the wrong place, feel free to move it.[/quote]

A few years ago I had time on my hands and set up a home studio for mainly dance music using loops with guitar bass and keyboards.
For plugging in all the hardware ,instruments ,mikes ,samplers , keyboards I used a small Spirit Folio 8 into 2 mixer.
The stereo output from the Spirit was sent to a Creative Soundblaster PCI card. That was back then , now you have many options , I would look at the Edirol 24bit USB 2 units or M-Audio stand alone units as these can be picked up for about £50 secondhand and you can bypass the mixer if you like with direct input.
I was never a fan of Cubase and used Acid which I found better for direct recording and because I used a lot of loops. I also found Cool Edit Pro to be an invaluable tool not just for making loops but for setting levels and Eq before putting them into the mix.
A lot depends on what your aims are ? If you are recording live performance of guitar bass and drums then a mixer is essential with phantom power for some decent mikes. If you are adding bass to backing tracks I would still use a mixer as they are easier for monitoring (you are not reliant on using the PC to hear what you are playing as you can use a monitor output into your amp) When I was recording my bass I would go through the mixer / soundcard / Acid / Sony Amp / Speakers but also listen to what I was playing via monitor out on the mixer through my bass amp. That way you can listen to youself at high volume without having to mess up the input levels to Cubase or whatever software you are using. You also learn more as to whats actually going on using at least some analogue equipment.
For monitoring I have always used the stereo out from the soundcard / interface straght into an old Sony F440E Hi-Fi amp.
Sony did a range of these with no tone controls just a volume so very little colouration of the sound. I think they are one of the most underrated amps ever. (I have one on my hi-fi and 2 in the attic as spares)
As for speakers I used a pair of Castle Pembrokes. They are huge but the clarity of sound is amazing and the youngest ones are about 15 years old.
Good active bookshelf monitors start at about £400 !!!! much less expensive to go down the amp and speaker route.
Please don't buy cheap active monitors they are designed for DJ monitoring and suck.
Price for the mixer £50 usb interface £50 Sony amp and Castles £80 a couple of good Shure mikes £100 and you would have an excellent setup to use and learn with.
Sorry to babble on but I just love value for money gear.
Hope this gives you food for thought...

Edited July 10, 2008 by Prosebass

[Prosebass]

Forgot to mention.....the Peavey looks excellent , similar to the spirit but with digital output (the effects put me off as I would rather pay for sound quality not gimmicks) But, if your soundcard in your PC is a generic unit ,or as is common these days a Dolby 5.1 chip on the motherboard no matter what the input is the results won't be good. You need a dedicated soundcard / interface to work direct with your software.

[stingrayfan]

Whatever you do, recommend getting hold of a Rode NT1A condenser mic for vocals. They're ace.

[cheddatom]

The firewire macki dealy looks great to me!

If you get adventurous with your mixing and etc on cubase, then you'll need a decent audio interface to be able to cope with it. You could get an M-Audio PCI card quite cheap used. If you get a Delta 44 you could DI your amp straight in, but you would need to buy pre-amps for when you want to record mics. These could be in a little cheap mixer though. The Delta 1010 has 2 mic inputs in XLR but is about twice the price (around £120).

If you fancy some nice outboard hardware though, one of those firewire/usb mixer/interface thingies will do the job.

I wouldn't get the peavey, the USB port is just a gimmick IMHO.

[slaphappygarry]

Hey man,

When starting out simplicity is gonna be best. Having external mixers and sound cards (two expenses) plus the cost of cabling it all up (ts not cheap) is a lot.

I would go for something like:

[url="http://www.dv247.com/invt/22278/product.htm?gdftrk=gdfV2356_a_7c416_a_7c1181_a_7cMAudio_p_Firewire_p_1814_p_Mobile_p_18_p_In_a_2f14_p_Out_p_Firewire_p_Recording_p_Interface_a_7cyo78iyc8FFsDSXJ6kvxIcg_a_3d_a_3d"]http://www.dv247.com/invt/22278/product.ht...vxIcg_a_3d_a_3d[/url]

Which is compatable with pro tools and is upgradable to 16 microphone inputs at once!

It also just so happens that I have one for sale for £170 which is very good money for the amount of i/o you will get.

Garry

[slaphappygarry]

And, the PG shure series stuff is ok. Certainly not as well crafed as the SM series but IMHO sounds muddier and doesn't have the same 1.5k boost that the SM57/58's have.

Also, SM57's (the most versatile mic you could want to own) can be picked up for £50 (go have a look in the for sale forum) which is only £10 more than the PG series.

If you are looking at a good condenser then I also recommend the AKG Perception 150 which, for £50 on ebay new, is a bloody steal for instruments and such like. If you are looking at vox then the already mentioned Nt1a is a winner.

The main thing I have to stress is that you will be amazed at how fast you will outgrow restrictive and budget gear. That is not to say you can't kit out a studio on a budget, just make sure you get the best sound card you can, the best couple of mics you can and, in 5 years, you will still have and be using them.

Good luck

G

[cheddatom]

[quote name='slaphappygarry' post='236371' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:24 AM']Hey man,

When starting out simplicity is gonna be best. Having external mixers and sound cards (two expenses) plus the cost of cabling it all up (ts not cheap) is a lot.

I would go for something like:

[url="http://www.dv247.com/invt/22278/product.htm?gdftrk=gdfV2356_a_7c416_a_7c1181_a_7cMAudio_p_Firewire_p_1814_p_Mobile_p_18_p_In_a_2f14_p_Out_p_Firewire_p_Recording_p_Interface_a_7cyo78iyc8FFsDSXJ6kvxIcg_a_3d_a_3d"]http://www.dv247.com/invt/22278/product.ht...vxIcg_a_3d_a_3d[/url]

Which is compatable with pro tools and is upgradable to 16 microphone inputs at once!

It also just so happens that I have one for sale for £170 which is very good money for the amount of i/o you will get.

Garry[/quote]

Good suggestion Garry! I suppose it depends on your budget.

[BassBalls]

I would simply just get a focusrite saffire which has a lot of goodies and control included in the box.

Info here
[url="http://www.dv247.com/invt/25740/"]http://www.dv247.com/invt/25740/[/url]

The pre amps are just amazing, the best about for that sort of money. I also think it comes with Cubase le in the box?

For now i would just stick with mixing inside you computer and concentrate on getting the best audio interface you can afford. A small pair of Samson rubicons will do the business for active monitoring.

[url="http://www.dv247.com/invt/28178/"]http://www.dv247.com/invt/28178/[/url]

Hope this helps.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='BassBalls' post='236395' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:54 AM']I would simply just get a focusrite saffire which has a lot of goodies and control included in the box.[/quote]

Heh

[quote name='dv247']Focusrite Saffire Firewire Audio Interface With DSP[/quote]

What's this, and audio interface with built in DIGITAL SIGNAL PROCESSING?!?!? Now that's a cut above the rest!

To be fair, I don't think i would spend that much money on an interface with a max of 4 inputs. There's no lightpipe input or anything like that. Like I was saying before the M-Audio delta 1010lt has two mic inputs (same as the saffire) as well as another 6 analogue inputs and you can get it for half the price of the saffire. I know the pre-amps will be nicer, but when you are limited like that......

Maybe there's something I missed that would pursuade me?

[bennifer]

Yeah, as I understand the DSP built into that focusrite unit is an effects processor, basically you get a set of plugins that tye into logic, cubase, etc, but instead of taxing your computers processor and other resources, it gets handled by a processor in the focusrite unit, thus easing the strain on your computer. Quite handy, if the plugins are any good, think of it like a cut down version of focusrite's liquid mix add-on.

[BassBalls]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='236410' date='Jul 10 2008, 12:11 PM']Heh



What's this, and audio interface with built in DIGITAL SIGNAL PROCESSING?!?!? Now that's a cut above the rest!

To be fair, I don't think i would spend that much money on an interface with a max of 4 inputs. There's no lightpipe input or anything like that. Like I was saying before the M-Audio delta 1010lt has two mic inputs (same as the saffire) as well as another 6 analogue inputs and you can get it for half the price of the saffire. I know the pre-amps will be nicer, but when you are limited like that......

Maybe there's something I missed that would pursuade me?[/quote]

It has two separate headphone mixes and the pre amps are superior to the M-Audio delta 1010lt. The Saffire also takes some of the processing out of the computer so it is less likely to crash or overload.

However i still dont think i can persuade you. They cost a little bit more but the quality of the pre amps and the Saffire control make it a bit more versatile and give you a few more signal options.

[Biggsy]

[quote name='cheddatom']The firewire macki dealy looks great to me![/quote]
When I was copying the link I thought you might like that one! It's all about the pre's

[quote name='cheddatom']To be fair, I don't think i would spend that much money on an interface with a max of 4 inputs.[/quote]

+1.. Although generally, I do find you get what you pay for. There are so many factors in achieving a decent recording it's all but impossible to find an interface that adequately covers all the bases without having to sell any internal organs.

IMO, if you're on a low, low budget it's best to buy something realtively cheap and solid for now without any unnecessary bells & whistles (DFX etc) that has all the connectivity you'd need to expand on later but is enough to get you started. That way it'll probably still be worth something when you come to sell, too..

This is the exact way I've gone about it. I spent 130 quid on a used MOTU 828 (firewire) giving me 8 simultaneous channels, two channels of phantom power, in 54Khz resolution. (That's CD quality to you and me, but do bare in mind many people reccomend recording in 96Khz and dithering the final mix back down to 54Khz. I don't.)
It can be daisy chained with other MOTU's to give you more channels, (even the newer generations which offer 96Khz recording) and it has every kind of connectivity I've ever heard of.

I spent months and months looking into (and trying to understand) all of the different factors to note about audio interfaces, (to be fair I probably haven't touched the tip of the iceberg) and the above was the best solution for me. I based my decision on so many factors it would be quite frankly tedious to go into, but I'd be happy to answer any questions on it!

I'd highly reccomend MOTU products, their driver support is incredible, which is important for resale purpouses. The original 828 can be picked up for around a hundred quid, which will be enough to get you started. The 828 MK2 is better in nearly every way, and I think I saw one for sale on here not so long ago for 250 beans.

Regards to software choice, in my understanding Pro-Tools is favoured mostly because of it's superior hardware support. It's easier to set it up to control motorised faders and so on. (Is that right?) Aside from that, you'll find all the top 'sequencer' software basically does exactly the same thing in a slightly different way, so it's all about the interface and personal preference. If you know Cubase, I'd stick with Cubase.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='BassBalls' post='236449' date='Jul 10 2008, 12:53 PM']It has two separate headphone mixes and the pre amps are superior to the M-Audio delta 1010lt. The Saffire also takes some of the processing out of the computer so it is less likely to crash or overload.

However i still dont think i can persuade you. They cost a little bit more but the quality of the pre amps and the Saffire control make it a bit more versatile and give you a few more signal options.[/quote]

I suppose it depends on how you weight your decision making. I like to record lots of simultaneous tracks, so the 1010lt and a half decent mixer/rack of pres/whatever would give me 8 mic inputs on some good, and some average pres. The saffire would give me 2 decent pres and take a bit of the load off my CPU. If I was a drum machine kind of guy, and was recording in my bedroom, then the saffire would be the best bet.

[slaphappygarry]

[quote]This is the exact way I've gone about it. I spent 130 quid on a used MOTU 828 (firewire) giving me 8 simultaneous channels, two channels of phantom power, in 54Khz resolution. (That's CD quality to you and me, but do bare in mind many people reccomend recording in 96Khz and dithering the final mix back down to 54Khz. I don't.)[/quote]

You do mean 44.1khz?

You don't get 54khz as far as i was aware. Its i 44.1khz or 48khz (the film standard) and multiples of that going up (88.2, 96, 176.4, 192...)

G

[Biggsy]

[quote name='slaphappygarry' post='236519' date='Jul 10 2008, 01:45 PM']You do mean 44.1khz?

You don't get 54khz as far as i was aware. Its i 44.1khz or 48khz (the film standard) and multiples of that going up (88.2, 96, 176.4, 192...)

G[/quote]

Yes, I do! God knows why I typed 54

The 828 has the 48Khz setting too.

Edited July 10, 2008 by Biggsy

[Biggsy]

After all that, please ignore my first reccomendation! After learning more today, the Mackie unit is flawed majorly.

[budget bassist]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, lots of food for thought. I probably wont be able to afford to do this particularly soon. I like what you linked to though slaphappygarry. I might just get a decent soundcard, upgrade my PC a bit and get a posh DI box and maybe a cheap set of monitors (my PC speakers are good, but too bassy, better for drum and bass or gaming tbh). I just need something with a few inputs that's compatible with cubase. (I've spent some time learning to use cubase at college and think it's pretty good so i don't want to have to try and learn something else so soon, might get in the way of what i'm learning at college a bit too)

[cheddatom]

For the price of a DI and a soundcard you could get an M-Audio delta 44.

[jamesf]

Ok, here goes my 2p.

I've been recording for a few years now, and have gone through more gear than I care to think about in my home 'studio'. I'd concur with a lot of the advice already given, that you really do get what you pay for when it comes to audio gear. However, don't let that put you off in the slightest, because there are high-quality bargains out there!

Firstly, it's great that you have Cubase and are learning how to use it at college - It's becoming an ever-increasingly viable and cheap alternative to ProTools, and using Cubase means that, without the added expense of a Mac, you have a lot more of your studio budget to buy high quality gear! I've spent a long time (and I mean I'm now visibly older as a result!) searching for a low-cost, high quality audio interface without any extraneous features, that will do a solid job, and will have a place in my rig long after I've bought more expensive gear; and I think I've found it.

If you only need two channels in and out, (are you seriously going to record more than two channels on a regular basis?), I highly recommend the interface I have been using for the past seven months, the Mackie Onyx Satellite. They have come down from £500 to about £120 new, and they can be had for around £60 on ebay. Consider that they have the same AKM converters as the DIGI192i/o (£2800 for 8 channels), and two Onyx preamps, which are much sweeter and cleaner sounding than the focusrite equivalents, plus a plethora or routing options, full talkback facilities, surround monitoring twin independently controlled headphone outs, and you've got one hell of an interface for a mere £60. It sounds great, both in terms of AD/DA, and in terms of Preamps - and I've worked with some seriously expensive gear! Long after I've bought multichannel high-quality AD, this will be used as my main DA stage and monitor controller.

Next, you want some monitors; these are where most of your budget should be going, as they will make the biggest difference to your setup if you haven't owned any before. I've conducted lots of blind testings of monitors and HIFI speakers (contrary to popular belief, monitors should be representative AND flat otherwise your mixes won't translate too well to domestic systems, and some high end HIFI speakers such as B&W Nautilus have proven to work better in the studio than some high-end monitors!), having done a BA(Hons) in Music Technology, with a specialism in acoustic design, and some of the best speakers in every test have been the humble JBL Control 1 - passive speakers which cost about £80 a pair used - they're my main monitors, combined with a Samson Servo 260, and do a fine job. Again, they'll be in my studio long after I have Genelec or ATC monitoring installed!

Unless you have a LOT of money to spend, I wouldn't get a mixing desk unless you feel some medical need to own one to feel like a 'proper' home studio - cheap ones are cheap for a reason; I went through 7 cheap mixers in 6 months once, no joke, and after that decided that it wasn't worth the hassle, they sounded much worse than just mixing in the box, and cost a lot of money and stress that I just don't need! You'll also have to have enough channels of AD/DA to be able to justify it as well, otherwise the spare channels will just be gathering dust. It's up to you though, mixers can look totally awesome, even though they can sound like @rse! The Mackie Satellite will perform all the functions, and many more, that you will get with a cheap mixer, and it'll do a damn better job of it too.

Microphones are a different kettle of fish altogether. The subjectivity of microphone/instrument pairing is to recording nerds like me, like a quest to find the perfect bass to bass nerds, again, like me Your best bet is to decide which instruments you're going to be recording, and what mics generally suit which applications, and which come in on budget! When you're starting out, you can't go wrong with an SM57 - I wouldn't go with the cheaper option because you'll need to upgrade to something better in the future, and an SM57 will have a place in your studio even when it's a million pound room! It's an industry standard for a reason, and sounds great on male metal vocals, and of course as a top mic on snare, on guitar cabs, toms, and even kick drum in a emergency. You may want to get a pair of small diaphragm condensers to play with stereo recording, and a full drum kit can be recorded with exceptional results using only a pair of overheads, carefully selected and positioned. The kick, snare, tom and room mics are generally only there to add weight to the overhead sound, which constitutes most of the drum mix you hear on a finished record. I'd recommend a Rode NT5 matched pair, they're good enough to learn with, but don't pay retail price for them. A good pair can be had for about £175. A large diaphragm multi-pattern condenser could be added to your mic locker after a while, but don't go for any bargain-basement 'bay specials as you'll never get rid of them once it comes time to upgrade. Buy used, buy good quality all the way.

Don't forget to budget for cables and stands, either. Buying good cables at the start will save you a lot of money in the long run. Buy Van Damme/Neutrik cables and they'll last you a lifetime - but again, don't pay ridiculous dealer prices, there are some great people on the 'bay that'll make them up any length you want for very little money.

Ok, just realised I've written quite a lot so I'll shut up now. If you can't tell already, I can spout on about this stuff for days on end, but just wanted to give some honest advice from my experience. I teach on the Music Technology A Level, and honestly don't get official time to talk about the fun bits of music tech, but I try to impart some practical wisdom from time to time!

If you want to talk recording and studio gear, PM me anytime.

J

PS. The M-Audio PCI soundcards are great quality, really cheap, and you can use ProTools M-Powered with them if you don't want to go the firewire route. You'll need some pre's though, damn, here I go again...