What does it mean to 'outgrow' cheap but good for the price basses?

[FinnDave]

If you are rehearsing and playing gigs, a cheap bass can prove less reliable than an expensive one. I often have to tighten various screws on the Squier, whereas the Fender never needs that. It also stays in tune better.

[Annoying Twit]

@Bilbo - I can see how problems with tuning stability, noisy pickups, poor fret work, poor intonation, etc. could hinder improvement. However, modern cheap instruments seem to have solved those problems. The cheap bass I quote often as an example is a Yamaha RBX374 which I don't own but played. To me, and this might say more about me than the instrument, it seemed absolutely spot on. (I didn't play it plugged in and hence can't talk about the sound, but it seems typical of that style of bass given what's on youtube). Reviews I've read suggest that action, tuning stability, fretwork, etc. are all good. Hence, provided that someone isn't trying to buy a bass for £70 new, say if someone has a budget of £250 or so, that it isn't that difficult to be 'lucky' to find a relatively cheap bass that works well.

Unless of course what I and reviewers consider to be 'works well' isn't what more experienced people consider 'works well'.

@FinnDave - good points. I find particularly the jack socket of my cheap basses come loose annoyingly often. Apart from my cheapest (to me) bass, my Shine 6'er which has a really well designed and rock solid jack socket.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[flyfisher]

In some professions, the 'tools of the trade' can make a big difference. An extreme example would be F1 where you could be the best driver in the world but will be outclassed by someone with a better car.

Music is not like that because the sort of instruments that our musical heroes play are really quite affordable. We CAN get our hands on the same sort of gear that the best pros play, just the same as we CAN don the same running shoes as Mo Farah, but they will make little difference to our playing ability.

[Jonnyboy Rotten]

I would describe my self as a 'barely out of nappies' when it comes to basses. I am comfortable playing most stuff with root notes and I am starting to put my own passing notes, flourishes in (some work, some don't).

I started on my ibby SR300 which I love. However I love the look of the dingwalls. I am considering getting a combustion at some point in the coming months but I am terrified.

Dingwalls (perhaps uniquely) are recognisable because of the fan frets and they look like they cost alot.

Fenders for example - unless you know your stuff could have cost anywhere from £250 second-hand to £XXXXX depending on the year.

So if I turn up to play a dingwall everyone - bass players and non-musicians (lets call them "muggles") will be thinking - 'wow that bass looks cool - he must be really good!'

I am clearly going to embarrass myself by the obvious void between their expectation and my playing ability!

So its almost like I feel I haven't outgrown my 'beginners' bass but I want to treat myself anyway. I know it shouldn't matter but you know what snobs musicians can be like - even some of my best mates (mostly guitarists) talk about each others musical short comings behind their backs and in one sense I don't want them to think I am 'too big for my boots' or that I have an over inflated picture of my capabilities but I try to just look at it that the more I enjoy playing the bass the better I will get and quicker!

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='Jonnyboy Rotten' timestamp='1394628080' post='2393433']
I would describe my self as a 'barely out of nappies' when it comes to basses. I am comfortable playing most stuff with root notes and I am starting to put my own passing notes, flourishes in (some work, some don't).

I started on my ibby SR300 which I love. However I love the look of the dingwalls. I am considering getting a combustion at some point in the coming months but I am terrified.

Dingwalls (perhaps uniquely) are recognisable because of the fan frets and they look like they cost alot.

Fenders for example - unless you know your stuff could have cost anywhere from £250 second-hand to £XXXXX depending on the year.

So if I turn up to play a dingwall everyone - bass players and non-musicians (lets call them "muggles") will be thinking - 'wow that bass looks cool - he must be really good!'

I am clearly going to embarrass myself by the obvious void between their expectation and my playing ability!

So its almost like I feel I haven't outgrown my 'beginners' bass but I want to treat myself anyway. I know it shouldn't matter but you know what snobs musicians can be like - even some of my best mates (mostly guitarists) talk about each others musical short comings behind their backs and in one sense I don't want them to think I am 'too big for my boots' or that I have an over inflated picture of my capabilities but I try to just look at it that the more I enjoy playing the bass the better I will get and quicker!
[/quote]

Sod what anyone else thinks, buy and play whatever bass you think works for you as a player

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1394626114' post='2393398']
In some professions, the 'tools of the trade' can make a big difference. An extreme example would be F1 where you could be the best driver in the world but will be outclassed by someone with a better car.

Music is not like that because the sort of instruments that our musical heroes play are really quite affordable. We CAN get our hands on the same sort of gear that the best pros play, just the same as we CAN don the same running shoes as Mo Farah, but they will make little difference to our playing ability.
[/quote]

It will. There are, or certainly used to be, real dogs, that are practically unplayable and you spend a lot of effort wrestling with them trying to make them sound. That's things like tone knobs that don't alter the tone significantly, frets that are not dressed or fitted to the neck properly, and other things like Bilbo mentions.

That's not to say (as I did earlier) that all inexpensive basses are like this.

There is a difference between 'cheap' and 'inexpensive', there are a lot of good inexpensive basses and if (insert your hero here) picked up a good bass and a poor bass he would definitely be able to tell the difference.

For all of us there is a 'tipping point' where we can't tell the difference to the next step up.

Mo Farah's shoes? If he ran in my model of shoes he would really struggle. If I ran in his model of shoes I would be able to tell the difference but they wouldn't make me run significantly faster.

I've done this with running shoes too. Start at £20 shoes and work up to £130, I got to £80 and decided the extra wasn't going to give me the benefit in return of investment.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1394628493' post='2393441']
Sod what anyone else thinks, buy and play whatever bass you think works for you as a player
[/quote]

Or, better still, develop your playing skills using a cheap old beaten up bass.
People then won't have any expectations and will be blown away when you play.

Actually, no. Rob is right - sod what anyone else thinks.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1394628720' post='2393443']
It will. There are, or certainly used to be, real dogs, that are practically unplayable and you spend a lot of effort wrestling with them trying to make them sound. That's things like tone knobs that don't alter the tone significantly, frets that are not dressed or fitted to the neck properly, and other things like Bilbo mentions.

That's not to say (as I did earlier) that all inexpensive basses are like this.

There is a difference between 'cheap' and 'inexpensive', there are a lot of good inexpensive basses and if (insert your hero here) picked up a good bass and a poor bass he would definitely be able to tell the difference.

For all of us there is a 'tipping point' where we can't tell the difference to the next step up.

Mo Farah's shoes? If he ran in my model of shoes he would really struggle. If I ran in his model of shoes I would be able to tell the difference but they wouldn't make me run significantly faster.

I've done this with running shoes too. Start at £20 shoes and work up to £130, I got to £80 and decided the extra wasn't going to give me the benefit in return of investment.
[/quote]

All of that misses my point, which is that good running shoes and good basses are affordable by almost everyone these days so it's not gear that holds us back.

[discreet]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1394628493' post='2393441']
Sod what anyone else thinks, buy and play whatever bass you think works for you as a player
[/quote]

Absolutely. Look at the number of very expensive cars on the road driven by idiots.

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1394632136' post='2393509']


All of that misses my point, which is that good running shoes and good basses are affordable by almost everyone these days so it's not gear that holds us back.
[/quote]

It really depends on your definition of a beginner bass. I suppose what you are saying is that intermediate basses cost so little, relatively, that people are buying them.

So now you have to be playing at an advanced level before you notice the next step up.

As I say, if I ran 50-60 miles a week in a pair of £50 trainers my legs would be trashed. Mo runs 120+ miles a week... There's a big difference in most things, if you know what you are looking at, and why.

[Annoying Twit]

<p>[quote name=&#39;flyfisher&#39; timestamp=&#39;1394626114&#39; post=&#39;2393398&#39;] In some professions, the &#39;tools of the trade&#39; can make a big difference. An extreme example would be F1 where you could be the best driver in the world but will be outclassed by someone with a better car. Music is not like that because the sort of instruments that our musical heroes play are really quite affordable. We CAN get our hands on the same sort of gear that the best pros play, just the same as we CAN don the same running shoes as Mo Farah, but they will make little difference to our playing ability. [/quote]</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>But music is not competitive in the same way that say Formula One is. A formula one car that is 0.5s/lap off the pace is nowhere. But, a bassist isn&#39;t normally rated e.g. solely on their speed. So, if you ask a potential champion why a Force India isn&#39;t good enough for the top level, but a Red Bull (thinking of last year - we don&#39;t know what will happen this year) is, then they can tell us. It&#39;s that 0.5s/lap (or thereabouts) that is a vital difference. This thread is intended to be about what is the vital difference between a moderately cheap bass and the really top flight stuff.&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>If Formula one was about driving around tracks in an entertaining manner with a distinctive style, then any of the current Formula One cars would be entirely up to the job. If playing bass was about who can play the most notes in a minute, then it would be easy to say that a bass that allows a player to play three more notes a minute would be something that people really need if they&#39;re going to be a champion bassplayer. But bass playing isn&#39;t about that, and hence it&#39;s less obvious why we need really good and expensive basses, and why moderately inexpensive basses hold people back.&nbsp;</p>
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[Dave Vader]

[quote name='Jonnyboy Rotten' timestamp='1394628080' post='2393433']
So its almost like I feel I haven't outgrown my 'beginners' bass but I want to treat myself anyway. I know it shouldn't matter but you know what snobs musicians can be like - even some of my best mates (mostly guitarists) talk about each others musical short comings behind their backs and in one sense I don't want them to think I am 'too big for my boots' or that I have an over inflated picture of my capabilities but I try to just look at it that the more I enjoy playing the bass the better I will get and quicker!
[/quote]

Herein lies the problem, the worry over self-image. Musicians are mostly arses, we look at someone with a very cheap chinese P-copy, and assume him to know nothing and have only just started playing. Equally, we see an accountant wielding a fodera, and we are equally disparaging of him. I have been guilty of this on many occasions, no matter what instrument the musician is holding, the other musicians in the room will silently judge him over it before he has played a note.

Worth pointing out that back in the early 90s we snorted at those who played Squiers, JV squiers... see how well that worked out.


Play what you like, someone will hate you for it whatever it is.

[Geek99]

I think an earlier poster said it all, youve outgrown it when you realise that it has limitations, [b]and[/b] that they are limiting [b]you[/b].
If you havent noticed yet, then you dont [i]need [/i]anything better (although you might [i]want [/i]it)

My P bass is the best thing since sliced bread in my book, and I cannot find a single flaw on it. Doesnt mean there arent any, just that they dont limit me if there are any there.

[Annoying Twit]

<p>[quote name=&#39;Geek99&#39; timestamp=&#39;1394635318&#39; post=&#39;2393559&#39;]<br />
I think an earlier poster said it all, youve outgrown it when you realise that it has limitations, <strong>and</strong> that they are limiting <strong>you</strong>.<br />
If you havent noticed yet, then you dont <em>need </em>anything better (although you might <em>want </em>it)&nbsp;&nbsp;.<br />
[/quote]<br />
<br />
My question was for those who have outgrown an instrument, asking them what they found limiting with cheap instruments, meaning that they have outgrown them.<br />
<br />
The instrument that I have that I find limiting is that often I can&#39;t get a good sound out of my Rockbass Streamer as I find the pickups a bit weedy. However, I have heard it make a good sound through an amp (not mine) that had plenty of welly and had its own distinctive sound - it sounded like a different bass entirely. Hence, in that case, maybe it&#39;s not the bass that is at fault. (This is just an example - I&#39;m hoping this won&#39;t send this thread sideways concerning a different problem).&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>I&#39;ve played lots of cheap instruments that I feel I would be very happy playing, and that wouldn&#39;t hold me back. Hence, given that I&#39;ve read of people saying that they&#39;ve outgrown cheap instruments, I was wondering what aspects of the cheap instruments that they found not good enough.</p>
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Edited March 12, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[Geek99]

Fretting work and weedy pickups are the common bugbears I thought

[skankdelvar]

It's always nice to have a new toy but - IMO - the most important contribution to a player's musical self-improvement is a well set-up bass. Stuff like 'tone' is interesting but all a bit subjective and in most instances is only of importance when soloing a bass in a quiet environment.

Like many older players I went for years in complete ignorance of nut-depth, relief, action and intonation. The first time I had a proper luthier's set-up, the difference was like night and day. My fingers seemed to fly round the board and I postponed all ideas of getting a new bass.

Over the years I discovered further enhancements: changing string gauges; actually [i]using[/i] the tone and volume knobs; shimming a bolt-on neck to improve break angle over the saddles; dressing the frets to permit a buzz-free low action. Of course, using a luthier to do all this stuff soon adds up to the cost of a new bass, so one might as well learn to do this oneself.

At this point, one realises that (i) one is more interested in tweaking one's existing bass than in buying a new item and (ii) one has entered a whole new world of nerd-hood.

Buy another bass or tweak the old one. It's all good.

[Left Foot]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1394612585' post='2393204']
What causes someone to progress to a stage where a cheap bass is no longer 'enough', and they must have a more expensive bass.
[/quote]

I don't know, I'm not there yet.

[TimR]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1394639427' post='2393598']
...

Buy another bass or tweak the old one. It's all good.
[/quote]

Skank has it on the button.

However for me, on a cheap bass many of those adjustments are either not possible or financially viable.

Maybe when you bought your 'beginner' bass you picked one with a neck profile or width that you were comfortable with at the time. That may now be the limiting factor. Change the neck and machine heads? Fine, but maybe the pickups and tone controls aren't quite right either, the body might be a bit heavy. These are things you probably didn't consider when you first bought the bass.

The bass begins to become Triggers Broom and guess what, in that case you've outgrown it and already changed it without realising.

Maybe the phrase 'beginner' bass is a misnomer, maybe it should be first bass.

It's more about realising what you can no longer adjust to your personal preferences.

Edited March 12, 2014 by TimR

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1394615744' post='2393253']You "outgrow" your cheap instrument, buy a lot of expensive ones, playing lots all the time, then pick up that old cheap one again after a lot of years, and find you are more comfortable playing it, it sounds better, and you like it more. (It's a Sunn Mustang, it cost me £30 25 years ago, it has had a fair bit of work done on it as well)

You have now outgrown the expensive stuff, and cured your GAS forever.
[/quote]

This pretty much sums me up too. A decent well setup Squier is almost as good as a decent Fender but for a fraction of the cost. I loved my GAS phase but boy I don't miss it now

[Lee Carter]

Thankfully these days I seem to GAS for cheap basses. When I was younger and had more money (lack of children) I bought an expensive bass, I wasn't very good but I thought the bass would make me better (it didn't). The cost of my basses has decreased as I've improved (I haven't improved a great deal, but I'm better than I was).I guess, as I have got older, I've realised I have nothing to prove to the better bass players so spend what I want on something that plays the way I want. I still have the expensive ones for special occasions.

[Phil Adams]

[quote name='Lee Carter' timestamp='1394643655' post='2393665']
Thankfully these days I seem to GAS for cheap basses. When I was younger and had more money (lack of children) I bought an expensive bass, I wasn't very good but I thought the bass would make me better (it didn't). The cost of my basses has decreased as I've improved (I haven't improved a great deal, but I'm better than I was).I guess, as I have got older, I've realised I have nothing to prove to the better bass players so spend what I want on something that plays the way I want. I still have the expensive ones for special occasions.
[/quote]

Wise words Great Mate.

[xgsjx]

So by "out grow" you don't mean as a kid, bought a cheap short scale bass & then grown up & need a longer scale?

[White Cloud]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1394612585' post='2393204']
I've seen a number of people state that they have outgrown cheap basses that they had, and have moved onto more expensive basses.

What causes someone to progress to a stage where a cheap bass is no longer 'enough', and they must have a more expensive bass. Expensive basses that I've played do have something extra over most cheaper basses. But if I compare, say a well set up Squier Affinity Precision to a USA Precision, while I can feel the difference, the affinity is still usable. One of the best feeling basses I've played was a Yamaha RBX374, and at the £230 or so price it was selling for, that's a reasonably cheap bass.

I can understand that players might get used to the feel of more expensive instruments, and it might be too much of a step back to then play a less refined instrument. If someone uses a very low action, then the quality of fretwork might mean the difference between massive fret buzz and little fret buzz. The pickups and electronics may sound better. But, I've also seen it said that the sound difference between (say) a USA Precision and a stock Westfield Precision might not be too much when they're in a mix with other instruments.

So, for any people here who feel that they couldn't live, or really don't want to live, with a cheaper but quality for the price, instrument, what are the factors that cause that to be true?
[/quote]
The same factors that make a person prefer a Porsche or an Aston Martin to a Ford Mondeo...or a Rolex or Tag Heur instead of a Casio. The Mondeo gets you where you want to go and the Casio helps you to do it within an accurate time frame.

Prehistoric man probably envied those with bigger caves than their own.

[TimR]

[quote name='Lee Carter' timestamp='1394643655' post='2393665']
...
on something that plays the way I want.
...
[/quote]

This is the key part. It's nothing to do with wanting a flash bass to show off with.

As you mature as a player, you find out what it is you want.

I wonder how many players would just go back and be happy playing that first bass that they learned on.

[icastle]

I don't form attachments to basses, as far as I'm concerned they're tools.

Like a tradesman I choose tools appropriate to the job - I'm not going to buy a 50p screwdriver and expect to use it everyday for 5 years, I'll buy something that is appropriate to my needs, does the job I want it to do and have a reasonable life expectation provided I use it in the way that was intended.

If my usage of that screwdriver goes up, or I need it to perform better because I need it to, then I'll replace it with a more appropriate one.

Sure, I have favourite brands but I don't buy tools purely on name or price tag.
They do however, give me an indication of what I can expect from the item in question.