What does it mean to 'outgrow' cheap but good for the price basses?

[icastle]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1394745261' post='2394812']
The whole industry relies on the perception that there is a division between "professional" ( the magic word) and amateur gear, and that you won't really be able to be effective until you have got equipment of a certain level.
[/quote]

Unfortunately, I could go out and buy a set of professional plumbers tools and still be the most clueless plumber since Archimedes Dribble, that well known Atlantean tradesman who got the principle of 'stopcocks' so very wrong.

A milkman with a super duper Fender that cost £4k is a professional milkman with a Fender that cost 4k.
They may be talented, but they're not professional.

A full time musician with a mid range Fender that cost £700 is a professional musician - it's how they pay the bills.

[flyfisher]

Are we overlooking an important thing in all this?

The point, surely, is that a 'professional grade' bass is affordable by probably 99% of the population. What are we talking about here - £2000? For an instrument that could easily do the bidding of a full-on professional bass-legend.

Even £500 will buy a quality instrument these days that could easily last a good player a lifetime, if they didn't just fancy a change after a while. Some people will spend more on strings over two or three years (maybe less)!

It really isn't about the instrument, it's all about the player. I simply cannot believe there are any bassists who are being held back by their instrument - and if they are then they haven't got their priorities right.

[icastle]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1394747388' post='2394858']
It really isn't about the instrument, it's all about the player. I simply cannot believe there are any bassists who are being held back by their instrument - and if they are then they haven't got their priorities right.
[/quote]

Subject to my minimum criteria, I agree.

Mind you, having said that I'd probably like to add 'and not a weird pointy shaped thing' to my criteria.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1394746527' post='2394837']
A full time musician with a mid range Fender that cost £700 is a professional musician - it's how they pay the bills.
[/quote]

Funnily enough for the three years that I spent as a full-time musician, the US standard Fender that was my main bass was given to me for free.

[icastle]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1394748188' post='2394877']
Funnily enough for the three years that I spent as a full-time musician, the US standard Fender that was my main bass was given to me for free.
[/quote]

That illustrates the point even better, but they're a tough audience here and I don't think I'd have got away with less than £700 in my example.

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1394747388' post='2394858']
...

Even £500 will buy a quality instrument these days that could easily last a good player a lifetime, if they didn't just fancy a change after a while. Some people will spend more on strings over two or three years (maybe less)!

...
[/quote]

£500 isn't in my opinion a beginners bass. That's firmly in the territory of intermediate to professional level instrument.

See my Argos example above. £90 will buy you an entry level bass for you to suck it and see. Would you seriously spend £500 on a bass when you were starting out? That's got to be nearly three weeks wages for some teenagers.

My second bass when I was 21 and had been playing for 4 years was £350, a months wages for me back in 1992. My first bass when I was 17 was £120 Japanese sidewinder. I still have it but I can't play it, everything about it is wrong. The neck is too wide for a start.

Yes, quality nowadays is better, but your choice of instrument as a learner is not influenced by experience. It can't be, you don't have any. As you get more experienced you know what you need.

My third bass bought in 2003 was £500. That's not a months wages anymore but its probably a few months disposable income and certainly 6 gigs worth of money. It's perfect and I can play things on it that I can't on my second bass, which I also still have.

Edited March 13, 2014 by TimR

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1394748525' post='2394881']That illustrates the point even better, but they're a tough audience here and I don't think I'd have got away with less than £700 in my example.
[/quote]

Oh right. I don't want to over-sell myself, it wasn't a gift from Fender it was stolen from a Fender dealer by someone who wanted me to sound good on his recordings!

Edit: I should add that the Fender dealer in question is still in business nearly 20 years on and has gone from strength to strength, so hopefully it wasn't too hard a loss on them. I didn't know where the bass came from until I'd been playing it for a year or so, by which point I'd modified it beyond recognition and couldn't have returned it. It wasn't even the same colour.

Edited March 13, 2014 by thisnameistaken

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1394749757' post='2394905']
£500 isn't in my opinion a beginners bass. That's firmly in the territory of intermediate to professional level instrument.
[/quote]

Precisely my point.

Why do you believe that a beginner's bass has to be the cheapest possible instrument? Especially when £500 can be an 'intermediate to professional' instrument.

What better motivation for a keen new player than to have a quality instrument that he knows won't hold him/her back and can probably be seen being played by some of his/her musical heroes. Especially when they are so cheap.

When FF junior started bass lessons at school I didn't bother buying him the lowest cost bass I could find, I just let him take my MIJ Fender P to school and saved myself £100. What's the worst that could have happened?

Quality basses are cheap as chips these days.

[Conan]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1394755244' post='2395008']
Quality basses are cheap as chips these days.
[/quote]

This.

[TimR]

As has been said many times. Cheap is not the same as inexpensive.

[Lee Carter]

All the gear but no idea...seen that so many times

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1394739889' post='2394707']
It beats me why anyone takes so long chosing a bass. Just pick up an Argos catalogue. Less than £90. Job done. You can even chose black or red.

[url="http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/039186.htm?cmpid=APPSOCIAL01"]http://www.argos.co....pid=APPSOCIAL01[/url]
[/quote]

This shows how much cheaper this stuff has become. My £30 Mustang, originally came from the Argos Catalogue in 1989, for £90.
Same price 25 years later for the cheapest bass in there.
Basses defy inflation shocker!

[SubsonicSimpleton]

IMHO the main issue with regards to whether an instrument is holding you back is all about ergonomics, a good set-up can make an instrument play really well, but if the instrument doesn't fit your body mechanics well, you will always be at a disadvantage regardless of the logo on the headstock and the cost of the instrument.

The main problem with this situation as I see it is that the manufacturers that have really made big improvements in this area over traditional designs haven't really delivered it in traditional looking packages - Ibanez and Yamaha have turned out some really playable instruments with styling only a mother could love - how many traditional Fender fans would even consider trying something like the [url="http://s93105080.onlinehome.us/Ibanez-Catalogs/catalog/2002/38.jpg"]Ibanez EDA 905 Ergodyne[/url] (pics show some of the tamer finish options)?

[Dingus]

I would, in the interest of full disclosure , like to point out that I do not [i]necessarily[/i] follow my own advice on any subject I may be offering the benefit of my considerable wisdom on, and never was that more true than on this subject of how unnecessary expensive basses are.

[EMG456]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1394806574' post='2395448']
I would, in the interest of full disclosure , like to point out that I do not [i]necessarily[/i] follow my own advice on any subject I may be offering the benefit of my considerable wisdom on, and never was that more true than on this subject of how unnecessary expensive basses are.
[/quote]

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1394755244' post='2395008']
Quality basses are cheap as chips these days.
[/quote]

Out of interest, could you name some basses that are 'quality' by your own subjective measure, and also cheap as chips?

[flyfisher]

Well, I was really responding to TimR's assertion . . .

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1394749757' post='2394905']
£500 isn't in my opinion a beginners bass. That's firmly in the territory of intermediate to professional level instrument.
[/quote]

. . . so I don't think it would help to digress into a discussion about how best to spend £500.

TimR's basic point is that such a sum will buy a fine instrument and my point is that it's such a relatively small amount of money that it means anyone seriously aiming to become a decent bass player cannot fairly use the instrument as an excuse for being held back in their playing.

I'm not suggesting that £500 is a trivial sum, but in comparison of what else it will buy it really isn't very much. It's an iPhone. It's a PC. It's a handbag. It's a decent suit.

My point is that when such good basses can be bought for such relatively small sums, why would anyone bother to buy a £90 bass and put up with its shortcomings? Basically, I don't buy into this whole 'beginner's bass' thing. A beginner's bass is the one that a beginner uses to start learning, that's all. I see no reason for that bass to be a poor quality instrument. Fortunately, basses are cheap enough that that's not necessary - and that's a good thing isn't it?

Edited March 14, 2014 by flyfisher

[Telebass]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1394628493' post='2393441']


Sod what anyone else thinks, buy and play whatever bass you think works for you as a player
[/quote]
This. x200

[Annoying Twit]

<p>[quote name=&#39;flyfisher&#39; timestamp=&#39;1394831287&#39; post=&#39;2395852&#39;]<br />
My point is that when such good basses can be bought for such relatively small sums, why would anyone bother to buy a £90 bass and put up with its shortcomings?&nbsp;&nbsp;Basically, I don&#39;t buy into this whole &#39;beginner&#39;s bass&#39; thing.&nbsp;&nbsp;A beginner&#39;s bass is the one that a beginner uses to start learning, that&#39;s all.&nbsp;&nbsp;I see no reason for that bass to be a poor quality instrument.&nbsp;&nbsp;Fortunately, basses are cheap enough that that&#39;s not necessary - and that&#39;s a good thing isn&#39;t it?<br />
[/quote]

Tom1946 seems happy with his '51 p-bass replica, and that cost less than £90 new. Second hand, there are a lot of decent basses available for £90 or less. While there are still poor instruments out there (I can&#39;t comment on the Rockburn in Argos), it does seem that nowdays even very small amounts of money can get you something that is there or thereabouts. The instrument I have that I actually play (bit of a story there) with the lowest new price is a Yammy Pacifica guitar. I think it's a decent instrument - can't do everything but it does a lot well IMHO. I'd be very lucky if I sold it and got £90 for it.

I feel that beginners don't particularly need this bass or that bass. What they do need is a bass that's properly set up, as they're unlikely to be able to do so themselves. But, once you have a solid bass well set up, then it shouldn't really be that limiting as far as I can see. Though, I suspect that there are a lot of beginners out there limited because they have an instrument in 'out of the box' setup, and it isn't very good.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[merello]

Change stimulates progress.

[ML94]

I don't know if it's been mentioned before but heres my 2 cents.

I started out on a 40 quid Chinese P bass which had immensely high action and the pickups were disgusting. Nevertheless I wanted to play the bass and I pursued it.
I then saved some cash for a VM Jazz bass (Squier range) and it felt amazing ! The pickups sounding sweet, frets weren't about to cut my fingers and the overall feel was amazing. It made me play even more, I got better and better each day.

Roll on a year now and I have been through a standard Jazz, 2 marcus millers, sandberg, overwater, ACG. All I can say is that the VM Squier I first had felt the best. It amazing how a bass which cost 250 at the time beats basses that are worth 1500 ...

[Cat]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1394628493' post='2393441']
Sod what anyone else thinks, buy and play whatever bass you think works for you as a player
[/quote]

Absolutely!

When you find the bass that feels just right in your hands, is the most responsive and comfortable to play, that's your bass. If you ever feel like you need pickups which have a different sound, you can upgrade those easily enough. But to find THAT bass which fits you is the biggest challenge. Find it, don't ever let it go - even if you succumb to the "expensive obviously means I'll play better" syndrome, keep that one bass. Don't ever sell it, because when you realise that perhaps your latest expensive toy, while lovely, just doesn't suit you as well, you'll want that previous bass, however cheap and "nooby" it may appear to others.

For me, my eyes were opened by the Ibanez Soundgears. As a woman with not very big hands and lamentably short fingers, speed is my friend so the wonderfully thin Soundgear necks are SO for me! I'm playing an Ibanez SR300 and I honestly can't see me changing in the forseeable future - if I do, it'll probably be for another Soundgear - but it won't be any time soon. It's not just the neck - the body is razor thin and comfortable for one who stands 5' 4" in her stocking soles, the pickups do pretty much what I want them to - especially through my modelling amp. I've owned more expensive basses, played many more in music shops, but none of them felt as "right" for me as this relatively inexpensive Ibby. I'm playing so much better on this bass than I ever have on more pricey instruments. And this Indonesian made lovely is flawless - perfectly dressed frets, action seriously low (as I like it), no problems with the electronics or pots. Why would I want another bass? I did have more but sold them - I still have one but it's utterly neglected since I got this one.

Find your true love and hold onto it for all you're worth - and to hell with what it costs you and doubly to hell with what other people think of it or you! Just make your music and show them what you and your beloved can do together.


[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1394632139' post='2393510']
Absolutely. Look at the number of very expensive cars on the road driven by idiots.
[/quote]

^ This is the star quote of the thread so far. Dripping with truth!

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Cat' timestamp='1395338298' post='2401375']
^ This is the star quote of the thread so far. Dripping with truth!
[/quote]

'Idiots' or just bad drivers? I'd doubt a true 'idiot' could afford such an expensive car in the first place.

[gub]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1394624509' post='2393371']
More expensive = much better. Obvious, innit. Apple has built a whole business empire around that principle, so that proves it.

Bottom line - people like shiny new things and if they have some spare cash they'll look for ways to spend it, whatever their particular interests. Could be a 'better' car, suit, handbag, jewellery, whatever. I seriously doubt that an electric bass is the limiting factor in anyone's playing (assuming it's well set up), except perhaps for that elusive 'feel good' factor helping you to play better.

I reckon Pino could pick up my Fender MIJ precision and play anyone off the stage with it, but I wouldn't be any better if I played his bass.

Fact is, it's talent and ability that hold most people back, not their gear, but gear is something that's easy to change so that's what people do.

This
[/quote]

[Mark Dyer]

About three years ago I took the plunge and ordered myself a Status, a headless S2, book matched wood, upgraded circuitry the lot, (no LED's before you ask). I didn't make the decision lightly, a couple of mates already owned various Status basses, I had played those and heard quite a few others.

When it arrived I must admit to not knowing quite what to do with it, £2600 worth of shiny bass just sitting there, I was too scared to even use it on a gig for the first few months, but now it's defo my No 1 bass. I've grown so used to it now, the neck is so comfortable, I pick up the Jazz now and I can feel the difference straight away.

It also made me realise that I much prefer the sound and quality of modern bass guitars, the Jazz is a lovely instrument but a waste if it doesn't get used. It'll be on sale here shortly if there's any Lefties interested.

I don't think I would consider looking for anything under the £1000 mark these days, maybe I'll strike lucky like some of you people here. I was in Bass Direct just after Christmas, trying out a Sandberg Jazz amongst others, and it seemed obvious to me that the bass was worth every penny of it's £1400 price tag, the sounds, the build quality, the neck, couldn't fault it really.