6v6 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1394707096' post='2394174'] [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]How about something that doesn't need two roadies and a fork-lift truck to move?[/font][/color] [/quote] Half the problem with valve amps is everyone (as evidenced by many of the responses here) thinks you need a 200-400w amp to play typical venues, but provided you have the option of PA support for bigger venues you just don't IMO, 100w would probably be fine (I have a 50w Traynor BassMaster that would probably be ample for pub gigs through an efficient cab). The weight of tube amps is directly related to the power output due to the huge transformers required for big power output, so if weight is a concern you're much better having a cranked 15kg 100W amp than a 35kg 400w amp running on "2". Cranked tube amps sound better anyway, getting the power stage cooking a bit is the whole point! [size=4] [/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 [quote name='6v6' timestamp='1394722098' post='2394418'] 100w would probably be fine. [/quote] Yup. That's why I play through the lightest Matamp GT100 in captivity ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Certainly, when I was gigging with a 100 watt valve amp (using a 2x12" with decent efficiency), I never got it to the point where the power stage was audibly breaking up. My band is fairly moderate in volume though, with a laid back drummer and guitarists using 1x12" valve combos of 15 watts and 40 watts. I sometimes wonder whether I could get away with a smaller head of 30 or 50 watts with this band (partly because I fancy building one when funds allow). With that in mind, a good 200 watt valve amp should totally drive a loud rock band with the right cabs, and 400 watts is major stadium and festival stage stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydye Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 the old rule of thumb was along the lines of twice the power of the guitarsits amp wasn't it? so if they've got 100w marshalls type thingies then a 200w bass amp (all valve of course) would be sufficient? a similar rule of thumb between all valve and solid state bass amps is you need 10x the power to get a similar volume with solid state yes? did I read those somewhere? happy to be wrong but I do know that my 200w orange is a sh*t load louder than the 900w genz I had! and is similarly louder and fuller than the LMIII I do have... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoneham Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I can do a lot with the preamp to shape the tone, so I intend to experiment with a valve drive circuit for dialling in extra grit at lower volumes. It could even be a 2nd channel, and footswitchable if needed. I'll be using local players as guinea pigs as I do prefer clean bass tones myself (I'm a lead guitarist hence why I'm relying on other peoples ears) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Stoneham' timestamp='1394727365' post='2394519'] I can do a lot with the preamp to shape the tone, so I intend to experiment with a valve drive circuit for dialling in extra grit at lower volumes. It could even be a 2nd channel, and footswitchable if needed. I'll be using local players as guinea pigs as I do prefer clean bass tones myself (I'm a lead guitarist hence why I'm relying on other peoples ears) [/quote] Again, just my tuppence-worth, so take with handfuls of salt... To me, a bass amp is different from guitar amps (yes, I play guitar, too...). It's not tone controls that I listen for in a bass amp; the bass amp [i]is [/i]the tone. I've had several, and built a few way back then. The end result (for me; I insist...) is all the tone controls at noon. I would even go further, and refer to videos of the one-and-only Jaco, where he will faff about going to the amp and frig around with the dials, often to catastrophic effect (imho, of course..!). If I want to change tone or effects, it's not at the amp that I'd do it. That's what foot-pedals and multi-fxs are for. I'll be following with interest the progress made in your endeavours, and am certainly not suggesting how eggs should be sucked..! It'll be interesting to see how others see things... Edited March 13, 2014 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skychaserhigh Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 To me tone controls are there to be used to get the sound you like and works for the gig. I don't buy into the controls at noon business , if it sounds good like that then fair enough but if not don't be afraid to move them to your liking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 [quote name='skychaserhigh' timestamp='1394736052' post='2394650'] To me tone controls are there to be used to get the sound you like and works for the gig. I don't buy into the controls at noon business , if it sounds good like that then fair enough but if not don't be afraid to move them to your liking. [/quote] Exactly; we're in agreement, except that I adjust from either the bass (it's under my fingers...) or from the pedal(s...) under my toes. No need to touch the amp at all, or even to [i]have [/i]tone controls. Think of it as just a power amp, and that's it. Best not go too far down this road here, maybe; it could be furthered in a dedicated thread. We're all different, of course; my 'methods' are not necessarily (or even likely to be...) prevalent. It's just [i]my [/i]experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman Steve Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I use Svetlana Winged C 6550's in my Bass 400 and they're wonderful. I don't want any grit in my sound thanks and the bass 400 (which has 6 power valves) typically runs on 3 on both the master and the channel. I agree 200w is plenty but my illogical desire for idiotic headroom means about 600 available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I'm assuming this uses a Marshall/Fender style tonestack? Perhaps a baxandall/james tonestack might be an interesting option. Also 6SL7 preamp sections seem to be enjoying a bit of a revival at the minute. A transformer driven DI would be a nice option too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTypeV4 Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 KT88 vs 6550.. Now there's a battle! Personally I like clean bass sounds with just a touch of power stage compression (venue and arrangement permitting of course) going on.. I've also used both valves in various guises and in different amps too and agree they all have a slightly different flavour so making that choice will always be tough. My 60w amp runs a pair of re-issue Tung-Sol 6550 and if pinned will get all Lemmy but as stated I prefer to run it clean so tend to back off as the amp compresses but it does have quite a wide area where that compression happens before we get into grit town. I appreciate it's as much circuit design as the valves but this combination works great. The big Ashton runs EHX KT88 and it too does the compression thing nicely but is rather loud when it does and doesn't really break-up even flat out. I found in a nutshell that 6550 have more compression and grit with pronounced lower mids whereas '88s are altogether more hollow and transparent staying cleaner when maxed. I know there is a number of 'fluffy' statements and sweeping generalisations in this paragraph but they are based on real world experiences. If the Stoneham amps are built to order then maybe on application, the customer could specify their playing style and consider the options between a KT88 or 6550 loaded model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotelEcho Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) I'm going to go the other way and say that the reason I'd want to buy and carry a valve amp has sod all to do with clean headroom! (that's what GKs and SWRs are for... ) It's all about the breakup and grit. Something simple with a tube drive circuit in a "plug and play" type front panel setup along the lines of an SVT-CL with lower power and plenty of midrange heft sounds marvellous. Edited March 14, 2014 by HotelEcho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 [quote name='HotelEcho' timestamp='1394786052' post='2395147'] I'm going to go the other way and say that the reason I'd want to buy and carry a valve amp has sod all to do with clean headroom! (that's what GKs and SWRs are for... ) It's all about the breakup and grit. Something simple with a tube drive circuit in a "plug and play" type front panel setup along the lines of an SVT-CL with lower power and plenty of midrange heft sounds marvellous. [/quote] This reads like the script of a valve amp 0845 phone chat line. Absolute glorious filth. :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetofuj Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) Great news! My band mate got a Stoneham amp few months ago and he dig it as hell! Actually we both do. I prefer low wattage amps. 100w is more than enough for my gigs and it's cool when you can crank the amp without killing everything around. Ampeg is selling a lot of these new V-4Bs, beacuse 300w SVT is too much for most folks. When it comes to size, I'd vote for like 22 inches, so it's fits standard bass cab. Most 19" wide cabs are designed to go with portable class D amps. Edited March 17, 2014 by jetofuj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obbm Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 [quote name='jetofuj' timestamp='1395097121' post='2398787'] When it comes to size, I'd vote for like 22 inches, so it's fits standard bass cab. Most 19" wide cabs are designed to go with portable class D amps. [/quote] Well that's a new one on me. I've never heard of a standard bass cab before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetofuj Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 All right, let's say 4x10, not standard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skychaserhigh Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I still vote for 19 inches as it would fit both 4x10 cabs and the newer 2112 cabs. Main thing is the sound though and making it simple. Some sort of self bias control would be great too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetofuj Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 (edited) Rack mountable with optional head sleeve would be great! I'd personally keep the amp as simple as possible - especially that I'd like to see in the next few months, not years . DI is generally very useful, as soundguys are usually very lazy and prefer it. Is the amp actually based on Super Bass/JCM800? Edited March 18, 2014 by jetofuj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoneham Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 [quote name='jetofuj' timestamp='1395139409' post='2399016'] Rack mountable with optional head sleeve would be great! I'd personally keep the amp as simple as possible - especially that I'd like to see in the next few months, not years . DI is generally very useful, as soundguys are usually very lazy and prefer it. Is the amp actually based on Super Bass/JCM800? [/quote] My prototype has a unique preamp design that's not based on anything else, although it uses a passive tone circuit similar to a JCM800. I'm getting a lot of requests for a rackmount chassis, which I'm giving consideration; however I have some concerns about the practicality of this design. Even around 20 kilos, its a lot of tension on the four rack fixing points, most rackmount gear is solid state and relatively light weight so no problem, a big valve amp won't like being suspended horizontally and any knocks during transit would likely cause warping at the fixing points or even shear the bolts. Personally I would feel safer with a product enclosed in a heavy duty, ventilated cabinet, like an SVT but smaller (and lighter!), as long as it looks right on a cabinet. The other issue with rackmount is the heat that would be radiated upwards, not good for sensitive solid state preamps/effects. If you're a bit old school and just want an amp plus cab rig, a rackmount amp necessitates a rack case to house it in which is a bit pointless. Just thinking out loud here. How would you lot manage with a heavy, hot, rack power amp then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetofuj Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Ha, I'm just thinking out loud too. I'm oldschool. I actually dig big classic tube amp enclosures. My old Acoustic 220 head is like 26,5" wide Finding that wide bass cab is painful though - even most 8x10 are narrower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barkin Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 [quote name='jetofuj' timestamp='1395145853' post='2399115'] My old Acoustic 220 head is like 26,5" wide Finding that wide bass cab is painful though - even most 8x10 are narrower. [/quote] Fits perfick atop a model 404, IIRC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andydye Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 200w, all valve, gain, volume, no other controls thanks, pair of 8ohm outputs and a 4ohm output on the back along with a line-out / di. wrap that up in under 20kg and I'm very interested in gigging a prototype with a view to buying a production model! I love my orange ad200b but the tone stack is permanently set to 12 o'clock as I like the sound of it set 'flat' so why not get shut of it and keep the tone interruptions to a minimum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetofuj Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 12 o'clock isn't actually "flat" when it comes to AD200. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 [quote name='Bassman Steve' timestamp='1394737873' post='2394675'] I use Svetlana Winged C 6550's in my Bass 400 and they're wonderful. I don't want any grit in my sound thanks and the bass 400 (which has 6 power valves) typically runs on 3 on both the master and the channel. I agree 200w is plenty but my illogical desire for idiotic headroom means about 600 available. [/quote] Mesa amps are normally biased on the cool side for durability so 6550's won't be pushed very hard. You could probably put KT88's instead. My vote goes for KT77 tubes for clean volume. Preamp valves - 5751's are my preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJ Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Martin, My big heavy SWR is fitted with both front and rear rack ears and in truth, the amp also sits in the rack on its rubber feet. I know a valve amp probably wouldn't like being stored on end like I do with the SWR but I still prefer the look of rack mounting over an old school marshall style guitar amp head :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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