Grangur Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Hi guys, I've bought a vintage East German P Bass with a beaut of a neck. The wood is all flamed up the back and it's nice and thick. Putting the bass together just now I was tightening the truss to get rid of some fret-buzz. I was working to the Fender measurements for the action - 0.38mm at the 8th fret. All was going well until.... snap! Rude words rang out the house and it's all gone pear-shaped. Does anyone here have any experience in replacing of fixing a TR in a wheel of fortune style neck? The whole bass didn't cost me much, so it's not worth spending too much I guess? Thanks for looking Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubsonicSimpleton Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Might be a good idea to demount the neck and provide some pics(including headstock and back of neck), as your post doesn't really describe the neck construction in any detail - there is more than 1 way to fit a heel adjusted trussrod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted March 16, 2014 Author Share Posted March 16, 2014 Many thanks SS. Here are some pics. More can be seen at: http://s1175.photobucket.com/user/Grangur/library/BC-pics/GDR%20bass/GDR%20neck?sort=3&page=1 If any others would be useful, please ask. As you may guess, the headstock is now veneered to give a better look, but this can come off, of course if needed, but there's nothing visible in the headstock that would give any access to the other end of the TR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubsonicSimpleton Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Try checking with a magnet how much rod is left in there - I would guess it might have snapped where the thread has been cut at the other end of the rod to attach it to a captive nut. Looks like the original was buried under the fretboard from the pics, does the neck have a skunk stripe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Regretfully, at this time, there's no skunk stripe. I've tried using a magnet/pickup down the front and rear of the neck and there's no sign of metal/grab anywhere, so I guess it's well covered. I've removed the tuning heads and tapped the neck against my palm and there is a rattle down near the heel of the headstock, if that helps. Is it possible the place we need to go in to access this under the veneer at the heel at the back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Something I'm aware of on this is the actual wood of the headstock isn't pretty, and if the back wasn't good I'd be tempted to simply buy a good, new neck. Or simply sell off the body, but for the short time I was playing it, the tone of the bass is really bassy. That said, I guess if I were to change the neck the whole tone would probably change. The bass is, I believe, a Musima. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubsonicSimpleton Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 You might need to try a stronger magnet. I remembered stumbling across this article a while back, and a quick session with google found it. http://grahamparkerluthier.com/2011/11/18/fender-bass-repair-1969-fender-precision-bass-truss-rod-repair/ Looking at your pics I would guess that the neck construction is very similar, no skunk stripe means the truss rod would have to have been installed directly under the fingerboard. If the trussrod will slide out freely, then you can check the fractured end - the most likely place for a failure to occur is where a thread had been cut into the trussrod (to fit a T-nut at the headstock end) which narrows diameter and concentrates stress. If the rod was braised or soldered to the T, and the joint has failed, the break will look very different to a stress failure. If the rod offers resistance to being removed, don't force it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) I've been taking another look. With the pups stacked together, making for a stronger magnet. On further trying with the truss-rod in, and then out. I think the problem lies under the 1st fret. I think I'll make further checks with a pipe/metal detector. In the pics where you can see the TR pulled out, that's as far as I can retract it without excessive trying. (How I SO wish I'd not been excessive yesterday.) When pushing the TR back in, and my ear against the frets, I can hear the click as the TR hits what I think is a nut. I can also hear the end of the TR rasp against what might be the threads of a nut, or something. I don't know if this gives a clue as to the problem? Edited March 17, 2014 by Grangur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 More progress: After some jiggling I've got the truss rod out. This length tells me the securing location must be under the first half of the first fret. (Nearest to the nut). Probably the best way to access this would be to remove the nut and the first fret and slice the fingerboard off along the length to remove the fingerboard. I've spoken with Graham Parker - nice guy. He says to do this using a Japanese saw, with a fine blade. I've heard of folk steaming the FB off. I don't know if anyone here has ever had any success in doing this? I've not got a Japanese saw, but I do have a steam-iron. The other thing bothering me slightly is when tightening the rod, before it broke, it didn't seem to do much. When I put the TR back into the neck, it snags on what seems to be, sections of tubes inside. I don't know if this is right? I don't really want to buy the saw, do the work and then find the whole thing is shot to pieces anyway. Maybe I'm in for a new/replacement neck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubsonicSimpleton Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Can you take a good close-up of the end of the trussrod from the nut end? It may give some extra info about what has happened Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r623/Grangur/BC-pics/GDR%20bass/GDR%20neck/TrussRod005_zps9ffea54c.jpgs this any good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubsonicSimpleton Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 It isn't really possible to see clearly from the photo, but I will try to explain, Take a look at the end surface of the trussrod, and compare what you are seeing to the images http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DuctileFailure.jpg http://www.met-tech.com/images/fractured-input-shaft-6.jpg If the trussrod snapped, the end surface of the rod that was at the nut end will have the same rough crystalline texture that you see in the images. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Ahhh... ok It doesn't look/feel crystalline to me. The damage I think I see is more like a stripped thread. It looks like there wasn't much thread there either, if that's what was holding it in the end block. Actually, if the TR wasn't doing much before it failed I recon I could be best opening it up and replacing the TR entirely. Maybe with something like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/580mm-2-way-adjustable-bass-truss-rod-UK-stock-/161193308531?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2587deb173 Many thanks for your help BTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubsonicSimpleton Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 You could also consider replicating the rod, but changing the the anchor for something with a bit more thread available like a barrel nut and peening the rod properly, or welding the existing rod into the old nut(or a copy) - just try to avoid being impatient or impulsive, and don't go buying a new trussrod before you have the fingerboard off and can really see what you are dealing with. This trussrod looks like the nut has been welded, you can see the temper colours making a concentric halo around the weld http://www.tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/i/single-truss-rods_1.jpg This solution is far stronger than cut threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Japanese saw ordered yesterday. Hopefully, if it's here at the weekend I'll see if I can part off the first fret of the FB and see what's gone on in there. This is what I've got coming: http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworking-hand-tools-saws-ryoba-saws-ryoba-compact+jp1015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 (edited) [quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1395295622' post='2400709'] Japanese saw ordered yesterday. Hopefully, if it's here at the weekend I'll see if I can part off the first fret of the FB and see what's gone on in there. This is what I've got coming: [url="http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+woodworking-hand-tools-saws-ryoba-saws-ryoba-compact+jp1015"]http://www.rutlands....-compact+jp1015[/url] [/quote] Bugger me £25 quid for a saw lol but joking aside I do hope you get it sorted those saws do look good though [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0sI3VUeNyk"]www.youtube....h?v=q0sI3VUeNyk[/url] Edited March 20, 2014 by Thunderbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 [quote name='Thunderbird' timestamp='1395347400' post='2401489'] Bugger me £25 quid for a saw lol but joking aside I do hope you get it sorted those saws do look good though [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0sI3VUeNyk"]www.youtube....h?v=q0sI3VUeNyk[/url] [/quote] Nice video. You've got me wondering now if I bought the wrong saw. The thing is I want/need one that will cut down the neck, through the first fret, so I need to have a wide-ish blade. I also don't want to get into the £60+ price bracket, because I don't imagine I'm going to be doing this very often. At least, I hope not. Thanks for the good wishes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 [quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1395353161' post='2401607'] Nice video. You've got me wondering now if I bought the wrong saw. The thing is I want/need one that will cut down the neck, through the first fret, so I need to have a wide-ish blade. I also don't want to get into the £60+ price bracket, because I don't imagine I'm going to be doing this very often. At least, I hope not. Thanks for the good wishes [/quote] I am sure the one you bought will be just fine and dont forget the guy demonstrating on the video is a bespoke furniture maker so he will be a little anal about the saws but yours looks just fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 Saw arrived today. Not had time to unwrap it yet, but can't wait to sink those teeth in there and uncover the demon within that neck. I've also got loads of veneer ready for making up the space cut by the saw too. So it's all looking good (ish) so far. What I don't know yet is if I'm looking at a small welding job, or a new TR. In some ways I'm guessing a new TR would be favourable solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary mac Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Hope you get it sorted Richard. Will be interested to see how this op goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted March 22, 2014 Author Share Posted March 22, 2014 Well, I've done the deed. I've cut the neck open. The fret came out ok and I've sawn my way in there. As you can see in the pic above the metal nut had distorted and the thread was shot. So, this morning I went down the road and met a good guy called Dave at a local engineering unit and he re-threaded the end of the TR and made me a new, stronger metal bracket to screw into. The TR would have been slightly challenged to get to the old position. So I cut a new slot for the new end. Dave also got a bit carried away with threading the TR. So the thread's a bit longer than needed, but hopefully it'll be OK. (The slot shown above is slightly scewed. I've corrected this a bit since the pic was taken) The wood and the fret can now be replaced and all put back together. The fret wire is a bit low/thin though and I'm not sure about how good the frets are. So I recon a good move from now is to pass the re-assembly to a luthier, so the height of the wood, nut can be checked. Also he can re-fret the neck and do a good set up. After all, I messed it up in the first place by over tightening the TR when trying to get the action of the neck fairly flat. So a luthier would recognise when things aren't going so well and make any adjustments or fixes as it goes on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Well I think you have done a bloody good job nice one so happy it worked out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 Things have moved on again. It's all the fault of SubsonicSimpleton. I PM'ed him and he sent me a link telling about how to adjust the TR on a vintage bass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZtKzL3n0fgc So, I gave it a go and while it's not yet on the bass body I've adjusted the neck so it's almost flat. I'm anticipating that when the strings are fitted and it's under tension, it'll probably have a good comfortable relief. After this I've started re-assembling the neck. The saw blade has inevitably left a space in the wood that needs filling, so I used some of the off cuts of veneer from facing up the headstock. I don't have any clamps, so I used some of the skills learned over 30 years ago as youngster in the scouts and clamped it using wood off-cuts and string. Where I took out the fret wire the gap left would be wider than the flange of the wire, so I've filled it with 2 thicknesses of veneer. 1 piece goes the full height of the slot, to the top of the FB. The 2nd only goes about 1/2 the height. This will leave a space in the FB for the fret wire to go in. I'll probably have to glue it in place. OK, so it's a bit "Heath-Robinson" but what the hell, I've got nothing to loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 BTW, if anyone is interested in knowing more about setting up the TR, there's an interesting thread on Talkbass that relates to this and includes wheel-of-fortune TRs. http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f18/just-took-my-bass-apart-look-truss-rod-what-429638/index2.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted April 8, 2014 Author Share Posted April 8, 2014 Just to finish this thread off. Here's a pic or 2 of the finished neck after a re-sticking the first fret, re-fretting the whole neck and leveling. I veneered the headstock front and rear to cover over the mess where someone had moved the tuners about. Before... After... Other changes include a new pickguard from the Bass Doc, Badass III bridge, new pots and Kent Armstrong pups. Does this still count as a 70s vintage East German bass? I've still got some work to do on the nut, but it's getting there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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