On stage monitoring woe...

[leroybasslines]

Hi guys,

I've been playing upright for about 5 years now having been exclusively electric before that. I play it in a wide range of musical settings - jazz, soul, folk, country etc - and often struggle to hear myself on stage but by and large manage to get through ok.

Last night I did a gig with a band that I play regularly with. It's a kind of Americana, nu-folk vibe. We often do quite raucous gigs but last night, as often seems to happen, the venue's sound man insisted on mixing us more a like a rock band - loads of bass drum, v high stage levels etc. I had a word with him and told him that I couldn't hear anything of my bass and that I couldn't get my amp higher without suffering terrible feedback (I already felt like I was wrestling a rubber crocodile to stop my bass resonating and exploding into a million matchsticks!). He said he'd drop things a bit and stick some of the bass through a nearby wedge monitor, but it was still nowhere near a level that I could hear a note that I played. So I spent the gig trying to gauge what I was playing from the indistinct rumble coming from front-of-house and the vibration of the bass under my hands.

To be fair to the sound guy, it was an evening with about 5 bands and a very tight schedule; not a lot of time available to be making nuanced tweaks.

However, this has happened enough times now for me to want to do something to help myself out on stage. My technique is nowhere near good enough to trust that I'm playing with correct intonation (as I said, I'm an electric player bluffing it really) and I haven't got the budget for a decent in-ear monitoring system.

Do any of you guys have tips or tricks that might help? I generally use my PJB Suitcase as an amp in smaller venues or as a monitor at larger gigs. My bass has a David Gage Realist pickup that most soundmen use via the Suitcase's DI. Any advice at all would be most appreciated!

Thanks!

[ubassman]

I hate it when that happens ...its really hard to feel good about a performance when you cant evaluate things or even hear that you are playing.

I think the answer may be to be more robust with the sound guy. Nobody should have to battle a wall of sound on stage.

[Jezyorkshire]

its rather impractical to play double bass at those sort of levels and expect it to sound like a double bass, how do your band members feel about it?

[The Dark Lord]

In ears sound like the answer for you sir.

[thisnameistaken]

I've played more DB gigs where I couldn't hear myself than gigs where I could. Seriously tempted to buy some sort of budget IEM product.

[oggiesnr]

A cheap and cheerful tie clip mike, a zoom h2 in my pocket as an amplifier and an earpiece in my left ear. My quick solution when playing outdoors with a scratch morris band that consisted of too many squeezeboxes and people banging things.

Steve

[leroybasslines]

[quote name='Jezyorkshire' timestamp='1395101689' post='2398839']
its rather impractical to play double bass at those sort of levels and expect it to sound like a double bass, how do your band members feel about it?
[/quote]

It was difficult for everyone. What I find is that when we're playing with other bands that have more traditional rock/pop group instrumentation, the sound guys find it really hard to switch into acoustic mode. Our line up that night had drums (he plays with brushes most of the time), accordion, acoustic guitar and electric guitar. We can play at high volumes, and when the sound man is good and sympathetic we can hear what we're playing no problem at all. This sound man clearly had the drums set out like loads of sound guys love it: loads of bass drum and not a lot else. There was monitoring for the singers, which is obviously very important, but none for me or the accordionist which meant that we were both struggling to hear anything at all. I had the bass amp as loud as I could and tried to EQ it so it wouldn't resonate my bass too much, which in turn made it sound pretty dreadful.

In hindsight, we should have done what ubassman said and all leant on the sound guy more to work harder to adjust his approach...but that's hard when he's clearly pushed for time and perhaps an acoustic outfit like this is going to push him out of his comfort zone.

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1395102574' post='2398845']
In ears sound like the answer for you sir.
[/quote]
[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1395126101' post='2398878']
I've played more DB gigs where I couldn't hear myself than gigs where I could. Seriously tempted to buy some sort of budget IEM product.
[/quote]

Alas, I think you're right. I really don't like in ears when I've used them: I find they cut out so much of what's going on (in a bad way) and make me feel isolated from the rest of the band. But, in cases like this, I'm beginning to think there's no other option. We're the kind of band that one gig will be in a coffee shop or similar at really low levels, and then the next will be in a rock venue with massive stage levels and a sound guy who's deaf!

Anyone got any suggestions for IEM kit that won't break the bank but will do a job when I need it? Is it possible to get anything usable under £100? I'll always choose not to use it if I can...but if I've got it in my kit when I need it, that might be a good thing!

And Steve, it's that kind of Blitz spirit and improvisation that made this country great. I salute you!

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='leroybasslines' timestamp='1395273516' post='2400652']I really don't like in ears when I've used them: I find they cut out so much of what's going on (in a bad way) and make me feel isolated from the rest of the band.[/quote]

I know what you mean, but I also sing harmony so I need to be able to concentrate on the vocal sometimes and it's impossible if I'm struggling to pitch the bass. I'm much better at faking being right there in the zone than I am faking being able to play in tune.

[henrywillard]

[url="http://www.gear4music.com/In-Ear-Monitor-Systems"]http://www.gear4music.com/In-Ear-Monitor-Systems[/url]

Gear 4 Music do their own budget IEM system for just £54.99, but at that price, and given it's a real budget system that they've obviously just shipped in themselves from China, the quality and reliability may be up for debate.

The LDMEI systems that come in at £127, I have actually used before. Personally, I didn't find them great. The output was pretty poor, and to get any sort of decent level in your ear you had to compromise with lots of noise.

From my experience, IEM's are one of those things where the old saying "You get what you pay for" quite heavily applies

[fatback]

Any idea what was the limiting factor on your own backline audibility? I've found putting the cab on a keyboard stand extended as high as possible (shoulder level, more or less) let me hear myself without feedback. It loses volume that far off the floor, but with a PA that doesn't matter.

I also find small white stick-on paper dots on the side of the fingerboard a godsend in these sort of situations.

[EBS_freak]

This will make a good read...

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/205633-in-ear-monitors-help-needed/"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/205633-in-ear-monitors-help-needed/[/url]

But by going what you say, what you really need is an investment in the ACS Live system. It's an expensive system but it's really fantastic. What it gives you, are a set of IEMs with a tiny microphone built into each ear. The IEMs will give you a lot of isolation but then, you can adjust back in your ambient noise... e.g your normal hearing with a output level control. Then, you can also mix in the sound of your bass... so what you will get is your normal hearing plus the option of chucking in a load of your own bass sound without any problems with feedback or onstage volume.

It's a big investment... but I reckon if you went that way, you'd never want to play any other way. I've gone all in with IEMs... and I wouldn't want to play any other way now. No struggling with volume, mix levels, being able to hear yourself... it's just a joy to play.

As stated above, IEMs on a budget aren't a sound investment... but if you go with the ACS system, as I say, you'll not want to play any other way.

[ubassman]

As I progress gracefully into mid life my hearing certainly isnt as clear and crisp as what it used to be and some gigs are just muddy as hell with sound bouncing all over the place. Not come across the ACS Live but have just looked it up and it looks really very interesting. For ease , heres a link I just googled http://www.acscustom.com/uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=117&Itemid=91

Dumb question - but what do you plug the 3.5mm jack into? As you can tell not my area of expertise !

[TheRev]

My 2p worth from a couple of years of gigging with a fairly loud band

1) If you don't already have one, get a high pass filter (HPF) and a phase reversal switch DI unit like the Fdeck or the Fishman Plat Pro. Stick it between your pickup and your amp input and roll off everything under 100Hz - this will remove most of the troublesome feedback causing frequencies. If you can give the sound engineer a feed directly from this you won't end up with 300W of sub bass coming through your monitor beacuse you won't be producing any sub bass in your signal to the desk.

2) Get your amp up off the floor and as close to ear height and to you as possible. The stage monitors will be supplying your bandmates with all the bass they need, so use your amp for your own [b]personal[/b] monitoring. On big stages I usually have mine to my left at the side of the stage on a keyboard stand at approx shoulder-head height so that's is firing sideways across the stage rather from front to back. I have the EQ set so I can hear the pitch clearly, rather than for my ideal DB tone - this may mean a nasal middly sound, but it's better than boom and out of tune... Your amp doesn't have to be loud - just loud enough for you to hear. Also, ask the sound dude to take most or all of the bass signal out of your monitor so that you haven't got your signal blasting up at the front of your bass.

3) As a last resort - cheat. I have a little sheet of white stick-on dots (about 3mm diameter) that I'll stick on the side of the fingerboard to show me where the main hand positions are. On echoey stages (I'm looking at you Mr Kyps in Poole!!) where despite all your efforts, your bass still sounds like an elastic band in a tunnel and when you're trying to pitch backing vocals, it's a real stress saver to just be able to glance to the left and see where G should be and know that your note will be in tune, evn if you can't actually hear it. Yeah, I feel a bit muso-guilty about using markers but the audience is there to have a good time, not appreciate my musical morals.

[Thurbs]

Agree on the dots!

Also, I use this and it is much cheaper than molded plugs.

http://www.samsontech.com/samson/products/processors/s-class-mini/smonitor/

£50 + some normal headphones and you can hear everything you play.

[Owen]

There is a headphone out on your PJB. One ear of a pair of walkman headphones and it is job done. They will not seal your ears so you will not lose contact and you will hear yourself. If you have no independent vol control on the amp, get a very small mixer or even a headphone amp off ebay to regulate volume.

[Owen]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOPPING-NX1-Portable-Headphone-Amplifier-with-USB-Rechargeable-Battery-/400641800915?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item5d481cbad3

kind of thing.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='ubassman' timestamp='1395321975' post='2401069']
As I progress gracefully into mid life my hearing certainly isnt as clear and crisp as what it used to be and some gigs are just muddy as hell with sound bouncing all over the place. Not come across the ACS Live but have just looked it up and it looks really very interesting. For ease , heres a link I just googled [url="http://www.acscustom.com/uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=117&Itemid=91"]http://www.acscustom...d=117&Itemid=91[/url]

Dumb question - but what do you plug the 3.5mm jack into? As you can tell not my area of expertise !
[/quote]

OK, what you have is your In Ear Monitors (IEMs) - the things that you stick in your ears.

These IEMs have a microphone on each of the earpieces.

There is a multipin jack on the end of the IEMs, that provide the connectivity to the microphone and the balanced armatures (the loudspeakers in other words) inside the IEMs.

This multipin plug plugs into the live pack.

At this point, you adjust the volume level of the signal coming in through the microphones (so the signal from the microphones goes down the cable into the live pack, is amplified (at the volume set) and is then sent back up the cable to the loudspeakers in your ears).

The 3.5mm jack input is to typically receive the monitor mix from a radio pack. The radio pack would be typically receiving a signal from the radio transmitter which has an monitor mix going into it.

Your monitor mix can be tailored to whatever you wanted it to be... So it could be a full band mix, or it could be just a signal from your bass.

If you want to cut out the radio bit (which can be expensive to do well) you could use a small desk and take a DI out of your bass amp into the mixer... and then from the desk, probably using the headphone socket, connect the headphone 3.5mm out to 3.5mm in on the ACS ambient pack. The level of bass you then hear is controlled by the headphone level on the desk (as the ambient pack just does a straightforward pass through).

If you bass amp has a headphone out, even better, you can ditch the desk and control it straight off the amp (assuming it has a headphone output control, or you don't mind the speaker being silenced on stage)

Just shout if you want more info. I use this setup pretty much every gig (albeit with a radio pack) and I think this will transform your life.

Edited March 20, 2014 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

PS the ambient sound from the ACS is really good - it sounds just like your normal hearing... but obviously with bionic capabilities. Great for eavesdropping. And of course, the pack has a built in limiter and the like so no need to worry about transient spikes deafening you!

[ubassman]

Excellent many many thanks for the explanation - makes a lot of sense now

[leroybasslines]

Thanks for all your suggestions! As I feared, IEM done properly is going to be way beyond my budget/inclination-to-spend-money-on-stuff-that-isn't-an-actual-bass. The ACS system looks amazing; I'd love to experience it in a live situation. But on my budget, from what you're all saying, investing in an IEM system seems a bit of a red herring.

I think that a more planned approach to my own set up on stage - amp positioning, using a stand, EQ carefully, remove sub-bass freqs etc - and my learning to deal with sound guys with more clarity on my part (and forthrightness where necessary) would be the best approach. I think I'm with TheRev on this; who can doubt the wisdom of a Bristolian in high volume acoustic situations?

I'm not averse to using neck markers either. And if all else fails, I need a pair of headphones that I can stick in the PJB in an emergency.

It seems that this forethought and planning is so much more crucial when playing double bass as opposed to electric bass: the same situation on electric bass would have been no hassle at all. "Preperation and planning prevents p*ss poor on-stage monitoring" shall be my new mantra.

[ubassman]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1395340612' post='2401406']
PS the ambient sound from the ACS is really good - it sounds just like your normal hearing... but obviously with bionic capabilities. Great for eavesdropping.
[/quote]

..you mean to say that this could be my hearing aid into old age too - excellent!