Help needed (Serious) re Gigging Sound

[Papabull]

thanks gjones……. really appreciate your comments…… and that makes loads of sense too…… but i really want to enjoy my sound. i tend to play betters when my sound is good and compromised. This has never effected my sax/reeds playing. am getting frustrated as you can probably tell!!!.. love practising and recoding in the studio…. it's just the live stuff thats driving me NUTS!!….. maybe its a lack of experience too!!

[Papabull]

ps please excuse COMPROMISED in previous pm…. don't know where that came from!!

[discreet]

[quote name='woodyratm' timestamp='1395267386' post='2400583']
Get it off the floor back in the day I used a beer crate thing.
[/quote]

I'm using a Markbass Mark Stand with my 1212L - the 21st Century equivalent of the beer crate.
You just can't be sure of there being a beer crate at the venue as there inevitably was in ye olde days.

[url="http://www.markbass.it/product_detail.php?id=61"]http://www.markbass....etail.php?id=61[/url]

Edited March 19, 2014 by discreet

[gelfin]

Just another thought. Have you tried using the Gallien Krueger for live work?

Just noticed you are in SE Wales,

I have a GK Fusion 550 Head, GLX 410 cab and a BLX 210 cab. GK 400RB 15 combo, you are welcome to try any of these if you wish.

Edited March 19, 2014 by gelfin

[Beedster]

Good advice above (i.e., more speakers, auralax/isolation, more mids in the EQ, wireless to get some perspective etc), but you also need to speak to both the band and the audience. What you hear and even what the band hears are not want the audience hears, and neither is the sound on youtube unless it's recorded from the floor in a full room. Ask your bandmates and punters for their subjective opinion, ultimately sound is subjectively experienced and no amount of objective attention to detail will overcome that fact.

[Beedster]

I must add that I never found Markbass gear to have much presence or clout. Whilst their rigs and combos can sound absolutely lovely, it certainly wouldn't be my first choice gear-wise if I needed to be heard in a large band setting

[LukeFRC]

how loud are the band in FOH and in your amp. Is the reflection of the subs of the back wall overpowering your wedge monitor?

[Papabull]

Wow….. many thanks to Gelfin… if you're around for our next gig in Cardiff let me know. would really appreciate your thoughts…. cheers paul h

[StephenYork]

After owning a MB LM3 for a bit I would recommend using the amp EQ, I used to cut the bass, and boost the high mids and turn the VPF VLE off. Used to really help with the boomy sound because the bass EQ on the MB was set at around 80hz, meant the speakers could work more efficiently in the other frequencies.

[Papabull]

thanks to all for your advice……….. very gratefully received

[EMG456]

[quote name='ThePapabull' timestamp='1395268511' post='2400602']
thanks gjones……. really appreciate your comments…… and that makes loads of sense too…… but i really want to enjoy my sound. i tend to play betters when my sound is good
[/quote]

I absolutely agree with you on this. Your on stage sound can be crucial to the success of your musical performance so work to get it right for yourself first. On a gig you have virtually no chance of being able to judge what the sound balance is for the audience at any given point so leave that up to the front of house engineer or chance if there isn't one and aim for your own happiness.

Good strong usable tone is shaped by many factors. Try going back to basics and setting all your EQ flat. This includes the eq on your bass also. Then make small changes to your taste and see how they work out. Don't go overboard on large boosts particularly to the bottom end- powerful eq can easily use up all of the overhead in your power amp and speakers and suck the life and punch out of your tone and yes, the JRetro preamp is powerful enough to do that too.

Other factors to look at:

What pickup balance do you favour on your Jazz? Both on equally can cause a mid-scooped sound that some folks can find troublesome.

Where are you picking on the strings? Picking right over a pickup's pole pieces will create a much more dynamic and punchy sound than picking away from the pickup.

Are you for some reason hitting the strings differently on the gig to what you do in rehearsal- we probably all do to some extent- you may be "digging in" more or playing a bit more timidly.

Apologies if this is all stating the obvious to you but you cite lack of experience yourself as a possible factor so I'm just trying to point out some things to think about or try.

Lastly, I have no experience of Mark Bass gear but it gets a good reputation so I'd imagine that you should be able to get a workable sound out of it. Sometimes however, a particular speaker set up will just not work well in a particular room and it's just one of those things you have to accept.

Hope some of this helps.

Cheers

Ed

[Papabull]

Ed….. thanks for this …. so much to consider….. i think i play harder / dig in deeper on gigs….this could be part of the problem. pan position tends to be more or less central. generally finger over the pups. I've tried turning down on the last gig and this has definitely helped but occasionally suffered a kind of drop out at certain points. also noticed on gigs that playing in first or second position makes a massive difference i.e. low Bb on A string sounds better than low Bb on E string…. aaarrrghhh!

[Prime_BASS]

Turn the bass down, turn the mids up. If you are using the pickups both on full, anynthing other than a mid boost around 500/600hz is going to give you a low 'boom' might sound perfectly fine at home on your own, but in a band you have no definition, a compressor will help give some heft to the rest of the strings but a nice balanced set along with a good set up (pickup height/volume balance on pole pieces etc) can make a huge difference too.

Talking to the sound man helps, I've made a point to speak to the sound guy about the overall band sound and to tell him I don't us or really want any deep bass in the bass sound, if at all a low mid boost.

The sound I used when recording as extremely nasally and no solo bass man would have used that but it sounds right for the band and that is what matters.

I also rarely use the low E speeding on song really, a lot of songs are structured only using the A and D strings, they just seem to pop out more with the right balance of lows and mids.

[Truckstop]

John East Retro has an insane amount of bass on tap. Turn it all down by half and bump the midrange controls a bit. MarkBass I always associate with massive lows; try to trim off the bass on the amp EQ and turn off the VLE and VLF filters. Sounds great solo, but in a band setting almost no use at all. You don't mention not being able to hear yourself so I don't think you need to worry about raising the cab too much or pointing it at your ears.

A thought occurs; most big bands I've seen use a double bass and the bass sits under the mix rather than competes with the keys and trombones for the same frequencies. Maybe try cutting the mids and seeing how that works in a band situation?

Truckstop

[JTUK]

A big band is a huge wall of sound when they all get blowing so I would start by
isolating myself as much as I could from them. Depending on the ensemble,
you can get quite a lot of un-eq'd bass from the horns..in that they will be using
the sound they have developed over the years... as do gtrs and keys.. and
all of a sudden it becomes the bass players problem when he occupies the
frequency he is designed to occupy and the others encroach on it. !!!!
If you are hearing them back acoustically, there is not a lot you can do
to change their sound... but if back through the mons, then they will have to accept
a sound change just as you appear willing to do. They cannot be oblivious to the fact
that they may be blowing all thru your sound spectrum..ditto, gtrs, keys and drums.
Not enough thought and understanding goes on here and they need to adapt for the good
of the band sound, if poss..

The bass helps himself by having a clean sound using a good and precise touch..not heavy-handed
and you can use a scoop, if you want... it really depends what frequency is the most harmful.

The thinking should be to avoid clashes..NOT force your way through come what may..as that is
exactly what everyone else is doing, so OD'ing on mids is not always the answer and certainly not
if you just overload that frequency rather than a lower or higher one.
The whole band needs to be EQ'd with regards to an all in sound and acoustic intruments make it harder
as they ..er... don't have any. They are what they are, in that context.

As long as your bass isn't booming, you are looking to avoid frequency clashes. To assume mids will cure all this
is approaching from the same angle as the others, i,e someone else problem. And it may well be that a scooped
sound...whatever that manifests itself at... is the way to go, as you provide the bottom that the band needs a bass player to
do..and you have highs that cut through so you hear ..and if you can hear, then the soundman can do that outfront
if he wants. He may well decide to sacrifice that if you don't/can't argue against, tho.
Other things to avoid are heavy fat pickups and big fat cabs as these lessen your room to manoeuver ..

[Norm]

Not a lot of help really but sounds pretty good to me, even the bit at 2:25 that you highlighted as boomy! Not my definition of boomy ;-)
If that sound is straight from the gopro it must have been better in the room?
First thing I do is back off the bass & up the mids as most others have already said. Seems to work for me.

[martthebass]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1395264924' post='2400530']
It sounds like you might need more speakers....
[/quote]

Adding an extension 2x10 traveller or 1x12 NYC will make a BIG difference....

[M@23]

Not much to add, other than don't give up experimenting! There will be huge amounts of bass/contrasting frequencies in such a big band and I can only imagine how difficult it is setting up and sound checking so many people! I use a home made Gamma Pad (isolating stand) or a Markbass Markstand, and they make a big difference when playing on old hollow wooden stages. Not sure if mentioned, so I apologise if so, but where is your amp in relation to where you stand on stage, and have you tried EQ rather than the filters? Try cutting bass a touch to begin with and see if that makes a difference, maybe borrow a graphic EQ and experiment with cutting exact frequencies. Good luck.

Edit: just a thought, are you sure it is YOU that sounds muddy? Could it be that the band is that big that the whole sound needs work? It might not be your sound directly but someone else, or a combination of drum turnings, guitars or something else.

And, have you tried other basses? I use Markbass gear and moved my Jazz on as I didn't like the two together. For my purposes a Musicman Stingray, and now mostly a Precision sound much better.

Edited March 20, 2014 by M@23

[cheddatom]

I always keep the lowest slider on my graphic all the way down, just to get rid of mud

[dmccombe7]

i find on occasion that my jazz bass drops out a little on certain notes with certain settings both on bass and on amp and depending on rehearsal room or venue.

As pointed out before i tend to either drop the bass a touch and boost the low mids and cut the high end a touch.
Other option with the jazz is roll back the neck pick-up a touch and give the bridge pup that nice sharp, clear punch.

The Auralex does make a fair differance in certain venues and always worth a try. Either try borrowing one or make your own.

I use Bergantino cabs which have a pretty even sound quality over their frequency range.
What i have noticed with my new GK amp is that with the contour on it drops out certain notes on the bass A string mainly. I now run with the contour OFF and boosted slightly on the low mids with everything else virtually flat.

Also agree that adding a 2nd cab might benefit the overall presence of your sound within the mix.
Lot more experienced guys have already covered with some excellent advice that i will be trying myself.
Good luck
Dave

[chaypup]

That room in Demsey's is a bugger, the wooden floor makes it hard to get a decent sound. I always put the cab on a crate or use a Gramma pad which helps enormously.

[Papabull]

Sincere thanks to everyone for your help/suggestions and contributions. This has been extremely useful. What an amazing community this is……………!!!
i'm going to try Auralex isolation, turning VLF and VLE completely off, flat (ish) eq on the bass and a scooped mid. If i get the chance I'll also use another cab for definition (not volume)

The obvious thing that everyone has been too polite to say is……. that maybe my technique is rubbish. If this is the case i can only hope i'll improve with time..
thank you all

[dmccombe7]

Only just managed to get a listen to your VID when I got home and bass doesn't sound too bad to me.
Wonder if maybe a little compression on the bass would even the volume out a little altho it sounds pretty good the way it is.
Tone wise it seems to fit well.
I'm no expert in this kind of music but I'm really enjoying the song.
Think the Auralex pad will help with what you are experiencing.
Good luck and let us know how you get on
Dave

[Dad3353]

[quote name='ThePapabull' timestamp='1395338308' post='2401376']...The obvious thing that everyone has been too polite to say is……. that maybe my technique is rubbish...[/quote]

A tad harsh, but you're right, up to a point. I didn't know the piece, so compared yours to this video...

http://youtu.be/kIuvmvV_XiQ

... One can hardly hear the bass; it's very tightly bound to the bass drum, and discrete in the mix. Yes, I know; yours is not a 'pro' recording from a CD. Nevertheless, one can hear how the bass blends in, almost to disappearing, and the band sound is all the better for it (imo, obviously...). If I had any suggestion to make, it would be to relax and play to the drummer (who's doing fine; well laid back...) and loosen up. Compression should help quite a lot, too.
No, I can't play bass (still less 'reading'...) as well as you're doing in that band, and yes, I'm a drummer. No, it's not 'rubbish' (far from it...), but the playing itself is, to me, a bigger obstacle than the 'sound'.
Sorry if this pricks your pride a touch, that's not my intention. I'd be proud to be doing what you're doing there, and you're going to improve yet more in such an ensemble. Well done, but relax.
Hope this helps; no malice intended.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Dad3353

[discreet]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1395343488' post='2401436']
...the playing itself is, to me, a bigger obstacle than the 'sound'.
[/quote]

+1 Having just listened to the OP's vid, I think I would find it quite difficult to lock in properly with the drummer.

@ ThePapaBull: Can you hear the kick drum when you're playing? If so try to work with it more - I don't think there's a whole lot wrong with your 'tone', given the genre and line-up. A lot of the advice you've been given (including mine) is more appropriate to smaller, rock/pop bands (though none of it will hurt). If you and the drummer can get the rhythm side of it working better between you, I think your 'tone problem' would pretty much disappear. Should have listened to the vid earlier, sorry!

Edited March 20, 2014 by discreet