Ampeg Cabs query

[dmccombe7]

I'm thinking of going all Ampeg using an SVT4 Pro but not sure about the cabs.
I'm looking at 4x10 and 1x15 using the amp x-over.
Does anyone have actual hands on experience of the different cabs.
Is there much diff between the HLF series and the HE series.
They have slightly different freq ranges certainly at lower end.
Any recommendations ?

Its a classic heavy rock covers band. (if that helps ?)

Cheers
Dave

Edited March 29, 2014 by dmccombe7

[xgsjx]

I haven't experience of the Ampegs you ask of, but why go for 2 mismatched cabs?

[ubit]

He didn't say he had bought them yet. I think he is just asking about the cabs to ascertain which would be best to buy.

I have an Ampeg HLF 4x 10 and I have to say, its a great cab. The only reason I don't use it anymore is because I got a Barefaced super twin. I find the Barefaced cab a bit more to my liking, but not knocking the Ampeg, its still a great cab. A bit boomier than the Barefaced, but if you are looking at using it a in a classic rock outfit, then I reckon you have found your baby.
Im sorry, I can't comment on the HE as Ive never tried one and never a 1x 15, but to be honest, I got more than enough bottom end with the 4 10's, I think if you elevated the 4x 10 , you would have plenty in your ear

[discreet]

I agree, having used an HLF 410 I think it would be all you are ever likely to need.
Unless your band are seriously apeshit crazy loud, of course. YMMV.

[dmccombe7]

Historically I always bi-amped into 2 cabs to give me that low end and clear mids to high and with the Ampeg you have that built into one amp. It allows me to balance levels between cabs and just allows a little more flex.
I'm aware of the mis-match theory but this set up is used in many professionals set up with 4x10 and 1x15 cabs.
My own experience with cabs over many years with combinations of 10's, 12's and 15's I've never came across any issues.
I've spent a small fortune over the years trying to get that perfect sound and balance and maybe its just GAS but on reflection I compare to a sound I have in my head (que Ampeg advert) and that is normally what Ampeg provide and I'm at a point where if that's what I'm comparing to then why do I not just buy that actual kit instead of trying everything else in an attempt to emulate which I have come very close with Genz Benz streamliner but not exact.
Hope that explains my reasoning for query on different cabs.

I haven't decided for certain and it may be that the HLF cab on its own might be all I need.
I did try an Ampeg 4x10 cab in a studio once and it was pretty awesome sound from a Warwick Profet amp. The cab had amazing depth compared to my Bergs but still retained clarity. Problem is I cant remember whether it was HE or HLF cab.

[xgsjx]

Professionals have used 4x10 &1x15 for years because of false marketing & that's what they've been provided with from the Sales & Marketing department stating that the 4x10 gives mids & top end & the 15 gives the lows, which in reality it may have been true in the 50s & 60s, but it's now just purely an image thing. The people who design cabs very rarely get to offer advice to the customer (unless they own the company & have an interest in sound over sales).
Check the stats for the Ampeg cabs, I bet the 4x10 goes lower than the 15.
Having a 4x10 & 1x15 also means you're limited by the weakest cab. If you're bi amping then you're either gonna limit the 4x10 to go as loud as the 1x15 will allow, or you're gonna drown out the 15 with the 4x10.
If you really liked the sound of the 4x10, why not try both models out & see which you prefer? & if you do need another cab, buy a 2nd.

[dmccombe7]

That's probably the way i'll go xgsjx with the one cab and if need be look at a 2nd.
The cab I tried I'm pretty sure was the HLF version and I think it would be enough to satisfy my GAS.
The problem I have with theories is that in practice my own experience with cabs is that no matter what the design spec is I find 10's don't give me that low end depth and altho I've not used a 15 in few yrs they never gave me that clear mid to top end.
I have a combination of Berg cabs with Neo and ceramic speakers and the NEO's don't have the depth and the HT322 altho clear doesn't seem to hold enough depth or low end. That might be down to the GK Amp I'm using at the moment but my GB Streamliner also lacked a bit of low end with it.
I've not long had the GK 1001RBi amp and still experimenting with my current cabs. Sound is ok but not exactly what I was looking for hence my query on the Ampeg gear.
Oddly enough in the 80's I used a TE 4x10 Combo and it was sharp, clear with plenty of depth so as you can see I'm still in a quandry over this cab thing. Problem is in Scotland we don't have access to many shops with good quality gear especially Ampeg ?

Its GAS at the moment but will see how it develops. I have a full gear rehearsal on Sun with my GK 1001RBi and Berg HT322 cab which will probably be the decider as to whether I will look more seriously at change.

Dave

[xgsjx]

There's only a few decent stockists of bass gear that I know of. Kenny's Music do stock Ampeg & it's where Sound Control used to be (Jamaica Road) & there's also a Kenny's in both Dunfermline & Dundee. I don't think Guitar Guitar stock Ampeg though, but they do have good gear coming & going.
Whilst you're in there, have a try of Markbass. Lozz was an Ampeg man & finds Markbass sits in the mix very similar to how Ampeg does.

[dmccombe7]

thanks xgsjx.
will take a run in next weekend for a look.
Mesa amps / cabs also get great reviews but they are megabucks.
Looked at Markbass before buying the streamliner 600 and they looked good but my gut instinct is that the class D amps lack something in a classic rock setting and I cant quite put my finger on it.
Tried few amps out that sounded great on their own but in a live band setting they just didn't cut it.
Not sure if it was down to amp, cabs or combination I had but feel a tried and tested amp / cab match will offer best solution for me this time around.
OR its just serious GAS that wont pass (excuse the pun)

Dave

Edited March 29, 2014 by dmccombe7

[Lozz196]

The HLE cabs to me sound a bit light on lows when you stand near them, but out front in the mix they really give that classic Ampeg tone. From what I`ve read the HLFs have more lows - and some say not as much on top-end - so I think it`s down to using them really. From my limited use of Ampeg "fridges" the HLEs seem to have that kind of tone to me.

I don`t know if we`ve any resident Ampeg experts, but JimmyM on Talkbass is Ampeg crazy, may be worth creating an account on that and getting his views.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1396086788' post='2409751']
Historically I always bi-amped into 2 cabs to give me that low end and clear mids to high and with the Ampeg you have that built into one amp. [/quote]That's a valid approach with cabs that are quite different in their responses, being specifically designed to operate well only in the lows and only in the mids and highs. Ampeg cabs are not. Ampegs may have slight differences in response, but only slight, for all intents and purposes they're all full range cabs. That pretty much applies to all electric bass cabs. To find true sub/tops you have go to the PA cab suppliers.
As for a 1x15/4x10 in particular, it simply makes no sense. You don't need fewer drivers when you go to lower frequencies, you need more, A 2x15/2x10 would be a logical pairing, the 2x15 being a PA sub flat to 30Hz, the 2x10 being a top that doesn't work at all below 80Hz but functions well to 4kHz.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[ubit]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1396120505' post='2410199']
That's a valid approach with cabs that are quite different in their responses, being specifically designed to operate well only in the lows and only in the mids and highs. Ampeg cabs are not. Ampegs may have slight differences in response, but only slight, for all intents and purposes they're all full range cabs. That pretty much applies to all electric bass cabs. To find true sub/tops you have go to the PA cab suppliers.
As for a 1x15/4x10 in particular, it simply makes no sense. You don't need fewer drivers when you go to lower frequencies, you need more, A 2x15/2x10 would be a logical pairing, the 2x15 being a PA sub flat to 30Hz, the 2x10 being a top that doesn't work at all below 80Hz but functions well to 4kHz.
[/quote]

Agreed and so by that logic, unless you are playing really large venues, the 4x10 should be enough for most players

[EddyGlee]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1396078887' post='2409644']
I'm thinking of going all Ampeg using an SVT4 Pro but not sure about the cabs.
I'm looking at 4x10 and 1x15 using the amp x-over.
Does anyone have actual hands on experience of the different cabs.
[b]Is there much diff between the HLF series and the HE series.[/b]
They have slightly different freq ranges certainly at lower end.
Any recommendations ?

Its a classic heavy rock covers band. (if that helps ?)

Cheers
Dave
[/quote]

I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong.. but I believe the SVT410HE is infinite baffle (basically half of the fridge). and the HLF is ported which has the extended lows.

Edited March 29, 2014 by EddyGlee

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='EddyGlee' timestamp='1396122133' post='2410228']


I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong.. but I believe the SVT410HE is infinite baffle (basically half of the fridge). and the HLF is ported which has the extended lows.
[/quote]

Something like that at least.

The classic ampeg sound for me comes more from that giant wall of speakers in a sealed box. The steeper roll off on the lows helps make the bass to feel a bit more 'punchy' and other subjective adjectives.

So IMO bi-amping the ampeg cabs is a bit of a waste. As was said by bill you'd be better looking for dedicated sub.

[doctorbass]

[quote name='EddyGlee' timestamp='1396122133' post='2410228']
I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong.. but I believe the SVT410HE is infinite baffle (basically half of the fridge). and the HLF is ported which has the extended lows.
[/quote]

You're right. i use a 410HE and just wish it were 610......

[EddyGlee]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1396124622' post='2410262']
Something like that at least.

The classic ampeg sound for me comes more from that giant wall of speakers in a sealed box. The steeper roll off on the lows helps make the bass to feel a bit more 'punchy' and other subjective adjectives.

So IMO bi-amping the ampeg cabs is a bit of a waste. As was said by bill you'd be better looking for dedicated sub.
[/quote]

I was only pointing out that I beleive the HE is infinite baffle and the HLF is ported.

But I will add that you are wrong if you believe the sealed box has a steeper roll off. It has an higher F3 but a shallower roll off! and the ported HLF has a lower F3 but a steeper roll off.

[EddyGlee]

[quote name='doctorbass' timestamp='1396125457' post='2410276']
You're right. i use a 410HE and just wish it were 610......
[/quote]

Thanks I thought it was.

[dmccombe7]

ok guys you've lost me a bit with the roll off and F3
Any enlightenment would be appreciated.
Sorry if I'm a bit slow on the theory.
Can see the theory behind PA type set up but surely the 15 will have a different low end sound to the 4x10. Taking the volume out of the equation just to simplify things then with the x-over on the amp you can in theory direct more volume to the 15 than the 10's and boost the lower end with just enough clarity from the 10's cab.
I appreciate in theory that when it comes to PA you would have more bass bins than mid as demonstrated earlier by Bill. But its not about volume its more about getting the balance between your low and mid end cabs.
Surely if you direct more of the low end frequencies to the 15 and high end to 10's it should provide a cleaner sound overall.
It always seemed to work for me with bi-amping in past.

Dave

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1396129338' post='2410316']
Surely if you direct more of the low end frequencies to the 15 and high end to 10's it should provide a cleaner sound overall.
[/quote]It would if there was a significant difference in their response, There isn't. And using one 15 with four tens makes as much sense as building a pyramid...with the pointed end down.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[basshead56]

For what it's worth I use the 4 PRO atop a 610HLF and it's the mutt's!
I run it mono bridged and the cab can take it with ease. Serious earth moving equipment there!

[JTUK]

Are you thinking about some sort of x over thing....
Tbh, I wouldn't bother....
If you need an imposing cab, get a 610,,if you must have
2 cabs, then 2 x410 and you can bias one over the other
if you wanted to, but I can't see the point of the 115 in the stack.
Assuming 115=300w or so..and the 410, 600.. that is a mismatch in terms
of watts load if you get anywhere near pushing the rig.

You may well find the 115 bottoming out way before the 410...so at very loud levels
it is not worth bothering with. The 410 will cope better on its own and the 8ohms
is the limiter of pushing that hard.

[EddyGlee]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1396129338' post='2410316']
ok guys you've lost me a bit with the roll off and F3
Any enlightenment would be appreciated.
Sorry if I'm a bit slow on the theory.
[/quote]

Sorry Dave, I didn’t mean to get into any theory. I just wanted to answer your question.. and say one was sealed and the other vented.

To clear your confusion tho, the F3 (or cut off frequency) is the frequency which manufactures quote as been down -3db.
So looking at the two Ampeg cabs in question, the sealed 410HE quotes -3db @60Hz. Below this point it roughly rolls off (gets quieter) at the rate of -12db/octave.
The 410HLF quotes -3db@48Hz, so due to the port it has an extended bass response. but below this point it roughly rolls off at twice the rate @-24db/octave.
I say “roughly” as these are often not exact, as slopes are dependant on cab alignments. but it gives you the idea between the sealed and vented cabs.

Personally I love sealed enclosures. I‘ve found them to behave well in many situations. they tend to have great transient response so they’re well punchy. They’re also popular with many Classic Rock players. I know they’re not for everyone, but neither ported or sealed are “better” and both have advantages and disadvantages, it all boils down to what suits you!

Hope this helps

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1396129338' post='2410316']
It always seemed to work for me with bi-amping in past.
[/quote]

Oh yea .. Speaking of bi-amping (and I don’t wanna open a can of worms on bi-amping folks! ) and I’m neither for or against. But with you playing Classic Rock you maybe interested in the fact that Billy Sheehan uses two outputs from his bass, one to a sealed Hartke AK410 as his dedicated low, run off a Hartke LH amp. He feels it gives him the tight low end response he needs. and believe it or not he uses a vented AK115(1x15) as his mid/top run off a Hartke HA amp!. So contrary to popular belief of what should be done and weather it works in theory or not.. at the end of the day, what it really boils down to is personal preference, as that is all that matters.
So your not alone in your belief Dave

He's Billy talking about this.. starts at 2:20 mins on 1st vid and carry's on into the 2nd vid and even into a 3rd vid if your interested.

http://youtu.be/Hk5GmMYZ1QI

http://youtu.be/D7GczSGDUVg

[xgsjx]

I've not watched the vids, but lows of any sort are not something I would have associated with Billy Sheehan.

If you're using 4x10/1x15 then it would make more sense to put it on top as it has a wider dispersion for the mids & top and you'd stand a better chance of hearing it if it struggles.

Edited March 31, 2014 by xgsjx

[EddyGlee]

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1396247433' post='2411257']
but lows of any sort are not something I would have associated with Billy Sheehan.
[/quote]

Ok no worries . but I’m failing to see your point!

It's all about context init.
He has as much bottom as any other classic rocker I’ve seen. all be it with loads of mid/top aswell.
I could have probably found and posted Reggae bassists who use 410/115 stacks who have lows that make your eyes go blurred but what help would that be to Dave?
It seemed to make more sense to me with both of them playing classic rock .. No?

Personally I feel if your gonna try help someone, it’s all about context of usage, or else we’re just playing top trumps. which many people do, but that is no use to anyone!

It's the same when some asks what is the “best “ amp/cab/bass etc.. without context it is impossible to answer.

[winterfire666]

if it was me i would just get a 6x10, i have used that exact config and it is awesome.