De-valuing live music...

[Mikey D]

To go along with my Sky music rant, I have one more that relates to music...playing it live to be precise.

"Semi-professionals" who seriously undermine and devalue live music by playing gigs (I'm predominantly talking function type gigs or background music etc, not originals) for £20-£30 each as of course they can afford to do this as they are well paid in their careers.

I did a gig the other week and the bar manager says he can get a 6 piece for the money we did as a trio (£150) £50 each for 1h 30 mins straight through, which should have been two 45 min sets (never mind the cost of getting to and from the gig) and they are ""much better". Well, everyone I played with knows that isn't true, they aren't "much better" because they can't really play very well, but yes they have amazing gear, but this is about it when it comes to their set.

It's hard enough making it as a working musician, but to be expected to do a gig for £15 and a meal is a joke to be honest.

Does this bother anyone else? Are you somebody that does this? Is it actually just bar managers that are idiots!?

Generally interested in peoples opinions from both sides of the fence.

[ironside1966]

We also have to pay tax out of out earnings, most semi pros don’t.

Edited July 12, 2008 by ironside1966

[Mikey D]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='237961' date='Jul 12 2008, 02:47 PM']We also have to pay tax out of out earnings, most semi pros don’t.[/quote]
Do we!? Only joking, but I do wonder how many do claim the income. Both pros and semi-pros.

[Dubs]

[quote name='Mikey D' post='237955' date='Jul 12 2008, 02:40 PM']Is it actually just bar managers that are idiots!?[/quote]

I’d say that it’s just bar managers that are dick heads I’ve met a few in my time and a lot are just f***ing retards that have been working at the same place since they were 15 and have just ended up inheriting the position despite having little or no common sense or real social skills.
There’s always the exception that are great, but in my experience, they are a rarity.

[ironside1966]

It is not always the managers, it’s also the breweries and bar owners.

If a place is full and as good bands on every week do they leave it, no they try to squeeze every penny last out of the night they use cheaper bands then a duo then a disco.
Then the place is empty. How many times as that happened.

[OldGit]

If you want to earn money from playing don't play pubs or clubs.

Stick to functions, do a brilliant show every time and you too can join us well paid function players.
Simple really.

[Thunderthumbs]

I play in a functions band and wouldn't consider getting out of bed to do a gig for £50 per person.

If he can get a 6 piece band for £150 then they must be sreiously s**te or completely stupid. And if he can get a 6 piece for that money, and you're aggrieved at it, the simple answer is don't play there. You're as good as can prove you are. If you're much better than that, seek out the venues that'll pay you what you're worth.

I'm on OldGit's side of the fence (although we do still do the odd club and pub, but under our terms moneywise). Oh, and yes, we pay tax too.

Edited July 12, 2008 by Thunderthumbs

[bass_ferret]

We play British Legion and CIU type clubs for about £300 less agents fee's, for a 3 peice band. The singer can get £200 on his own on the same circuit singing the same songs and playing the same guitar to backing tracks. I dont declare it cos I cant be arsed but if I did I expect I would get a rebate on my PAYE at 40%. I dont think any of these type of gigs would pay for a living as they dont generally have live music except at weekends.

[BassBunny]

[quote name='Thunderthumbs' post='237995' date='Jul 12 2008, 03:20 PM']I play in a functions band and wouldn't consider getting out of bed to do a gig for £50 per person.

If he can get a 6 piece band for £150 then they must be sreiously s**te or completely stupid. And if he can get a 6 piece for that money, and you're aggrieved at it, the simple answer is don't play there. You're as good as can prove you are. If you're much better than that, seek out the venues that'll pay you what you're worth.

I'm on OldGit's side of the fence (although we do still do the odd club and pub, but under our terms moneywise). Oh, and yes, we pay tax too.[/quote]
+1 for Pete's comments.
If you are prepeared to go out for £150, you will never be anything other than a £150 band and could actually be doing yourselves more harm than good.
I found this on another forum that really sums the situation up.

Its all about mutual respect and understanding.
The venue needs to make a bob or two as do the bands.

It is a symbiosis thing ( whoa heavy stuff) Each and every band will claim (and rightfully so) that they are the best and will hopefully promote themselves and the gigs to the full. The venue, in order to get the maximum numbers thro the door should be working to promote the Venue. Sometimes thats a bit more than sticking a couple of posters up in the pub.
Getting some posters in local shops and a mention in the local paper
(gig guide sections etc) can get out to a wider audience.
Working together is the way to go.
After all is said done and the beer taps are dry, We need each other to make live music work.

I reckon that sums it up. I am doing some serious thinking about one of the bands I play in as they really don't seem to be able to switch on to the "promotion" part of the band and are seriously undervaluing the band as a whole.

Edited July 12, 2008 by BassBunny

[stingrayfan]

[quote name='OldGit' post='237982' date='Jul 12 2008, 03:09 PM']If you want to earn money from playing don't play pubs or clubs.

Stick to functions, do a brilliant show every time and you too can join us well paid function players.
Simple really.[/quote]
+1. Most landlords and bar managers want stuff on the cheap.

[molan]

If a band fancies playing for a night for beer money and they enjoy doing it and entertain people I can't really see what's wrong with it?

I certainly can't see how this could possibly be devaluing music.

I don't play for the sort of money your bar man spoke about but if someone called me up and asked if I wanted to play a gig without too much hassle and would give me £25 for my trouble I'd certainly do it if I had the free time.

To be really honest I love playing live and would play for free now and then without a second thought.

[OldGit]

Well I've spouted long and often on this subject on this forum as it comes up often because bands think their talent should be paid for and have no idea how real world economics work.

It matters no one jot how many people are in your band. The ONLY thing that matters is how much clear profit the bar makes after paying the costs of the evening. The six piece is probably on his case 'cos you get £50 per man and they'd like £50 per man too ..
His budget allows for £150 for entertainment. You choose if you want to play there or not.

So ...... to fix this you have to change the balance of power.
You have to have landlords asking you to play their pub.
In simple terms you have to pull a big crowd.

Nothing else does the trick. Nothing else will get you booked at a decent rate, whatever you consider that to be.

If you don't promote you band as hard as you can - papers, posters, word of mouth, flyers, street team, website, myspace, facebook, mailing list and, most importantly, a brilliantly entertaining show when you play - you are destined to always play wet floor toilets for crap money, if you can get gigs at all.

It's easy to move up the scale, if you are entertaining and put the promotion work in.

It's also easy to blame the bar managers when the reason you don't get paid well is because you don't pull the punters.
That, after all, is why bars have live music.

Edited July 12, 2008 by OldGit

[Jase]

[quote name='OldGit' post='238123' date='Jul 12 2008, 05:53 PM']Well I've spouted long and often on this subject on this forum as it comes up often because bands think their talent should be paid for and have no idea how real world economics work.

It matters no one jot how many people are in your band. The ONLY thing that matters is how much clear profit the bar makes after paying the costs of the evening. The six piece is probably on his case 'cos you get £50 per man and they'd like £50 per man too ..
His budget allows for £150 for entertainment. You choose if you want to play there or not.

So ...... to fix this you have to change the balance of power.
You have to have landlords asking you to play their pub.
In simple terms you have to pull a big crowd.

Nothing else does the trick. Nothing else will get you booked at a decent rate, whatever you consider that to be.

If you don't promote you band as hard as you can - papers, posters, word of mouth, flyers, street team, website, myspace, facebook, mailing list and, most importantly, a brilliantly entertaining show when you play - you are destined to always play wet floor toilets for crap money, if you can get gigs at all.

It's easy to move up the scale, if you are entertaining and put the promotion work in.

It's also easy to blame the bar managers when the reason you don't get paid well is because you don't pull the punters.
That, after all, is why bars have live music.[/quote]


Tis a good point OG...........But what I reckon really devalues live music ( nothing to do with OG ).......the amount of utter sh*te bands that are out there, the amount of bands that'll play for bugger all, the amount of bands that shouldn't even be out there!!!
The live music scene is littered with "bands" everyone's in a band...everyone's got a guitar

[thinman]

Can't really disagree with Old Git's rationale on the whole thing. There's no point in ranting about not getting paid what you think you're worth if a venue makes little on having you there.

It doesn't really matter how good you are - it's the trade you bring with you.

Hower, sometimes pubs and bars are taking a risk on some acts who are perhaps just starting out. I know some places did with us and you can't expect them to promise a lot of dosh for no guaranteed return.

And sometimes it's not about the money. We do the odd charity thing because we like to. If you're on the small pub-level circuit for the money rather than enjoyment then I think life could b a bit of a let-down!

[MananaMan]

+1 to that Jase, both on the original and covers scene there are far too many utter crap bands out there clogging up promoter's time and gig schedules. Its unfortunate that quality is such a subjective thing...

I'd also argue (being a staunch supporter of original live music) that covers bands do more harm to original music than crap bands ever could. I know I'm probably going to insult most people on this board at this point, so let me add a disclaimer : In no way do I object to people playing music for a living (whatever music that may be), nor do I doubt the musical ability or creative talent of anybody playing in a cover / tribute act. I also understand that there is a great desire for such acts in the UK today, so i do not blame anyone for persuing this lucrative avenue.

Having said that, I personally find it sickening to the pit of my stomach that bands are going out and playing venues that, in days gone past, would normally offer original acts more financially viable places to play using hardly any imagination to trundle out a set of other people's music.
£150 for a gig is de-valuing live music? Jesus! The last tour I played took in 8 gigs in 9 days, I think we got paid something like £250 TOTAL for the full run. That was with 5 of us travelling around the country in a diesel-hungry van. I think we broke even on diesel, just, and that was the most financially successful run we've done in over three years of touring.
I think its just such a safe and easy way of playing music for a living, you've got the entire history of music to pick a cracking set from, and the benefit of having everyone know your songs the second you hit the first chord. If anything, I think it should be the other way round, with the original acts being paid a lot more than the cover bands that really don't have that much work to do to make an entertaining evening for the crowd. Not that I think its easy to pick a covers set, just its a lot easier to do so when you don't have to come up with all the material yourself.

It just plays on the trend thats being going on for years now of re-hashing past glories rather than investigating new talent - when you see every band from 1999 backwards that even had the slightest of hits going back out on tour to scrape the barrel of their small chart success. Bands such as OPM (charted in the late 90's with the truly awful single "Heaven is a Half Pipe" going out at 400-600 quid a night... WTF???

Overall its a cultural thing here in Britain where people aren't remotely interested in a band unless they've got songs they know - its a fear of change and newness, but is certainly something that's perpetuated by the relatively cheap and easy availability of bands all to happy to cash in on this cultural eddy that Britain is currently stuck in.

OK, rant over. Once again, this is all just personal opinion, so take what I've said with a pinch of salt - I am both a bitter originals player and a cynically twisted live music promoter that refuses to book cover bands on the general principles outlined above. Some discussion on the relative merits of playing covers / tribute stuff is probably needed to reassure my miserable soul, and also if anyone can honestly justify it morally I'd be interested to hear your points of view!

Right, bring on the flame... :ph34r:

[Oscar South]

Lets all move to Canada.

[Jase]

I have nothing against cover bands whatsoever....I'm in one! I'm also involved in an original project. I just whinge about the good covers bands and the original bands having to put up with the sh*te! Because somewhere along the way somebody told these "bands" they were good! I'd love to find out what fool was resopnsible for that.

[ironside1966]

With covers band you generally get what you pay for.
You have to give people what they want and do it well, it has to be run and promoted like a business and be entertaining.

[molan]

[quote name='Jase' post='238133' date='Jul 12 2008, 07:11 PM']The live music scene is littered with "bands" everyone's in a band...everyone's got a guitar [/quote]

Unfortunately I can't agree. I only wish it were the case!

Using a really simple example - I work in a vaguely trendy company right in the heart of London and about 3 minutes walk from Denmark Street. We have about 70 employees with an average age of mid 20's and all earning way above the average national wage. Not a single band member to be seen, couple of bedroom guitarists at best.

It does feels like there are a few more bands around these days than the really horrible era of everything being produced on a sequencer and all the bass lines being played on keyboards.

The more the merrier in my opinion. If only it really were the case that everyone was in a band. How wonderful it would be to live in a world without prima donna musicians telling everyone else that their playing didn't really count because it wasn't either "original" or that the only "real" music was being played by supposedly hard working "professionals".

[Jase]

[quote name='molan' post='238242' date='Jul 12 2008, 09:38 PM']Unfortunately I can't agree. I only wish it were the case!

Using a really simple example - I work in a vaguely trendy company right in the heart of London and about 3 minutes walk from Denmark Street. We have about 70 employees with an average age of mid 20's and all earning way above the average national wage. Not a single band member to be seen, couple of bedroom guitarists at best.[/quote]

Must be great to be a musician in Denmark Street

[molan]

[quote name='MananaMan' post='238158' date='Jul 12 2008, 07:55 PM']Some discussion on the relative merits of playing covers / tribute stuff is probably needed to reassure my miserable soul, and also if anyone can honestly justify it morally I'd be interested to hear your points of view![/quote]

Tough call,

spend an evening watching appalling "originals" bands playing tuneless rubbish with little or no stagecraft or even basic musicianship or a classy "covers" band playing superbly written songs with serious ability and genuine stage presence that you can dance or sing along to and have a really great evening.

There has to be a case for both originals bands (without whom all new music would die) and bands who play other people's songs for the enjoyment of an audience who don;t want to be challenged.

Speaking of covers bands - where would we be without the amazing musicianship and ability of the Motown, Stax & Atlantic bands and singers who pretty much all played & sang other people's songs? Or the early rock 'n' rollers like Elvis (or even the Stones) who "covered" early black blues and soul classics?

[molan]

[quote name='Jase' post='238245' date='Jul 12 2008, 10:47 PM']Must be great to be a musician in Denmark Street [/quote]

They all tip up there eventually, especially when they first get some sort of public acclaim and get a recording contract and advance

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='molan' post='238248' date='Jul 12 2008, 10:52 PM']spend an evening watching appalling "originals" bands playing tuneless rubbish with little or no stagecraft or even basic musicianship or a classy "covers" band playing superbly written songs with serious ability and genuine stage presence that you can dance or sing along to and have a really great evening.[/quote]

To make a fairer comparison, would you prefer a great covers band or a great originals band?

How about a covers band or a karaoke night?

Covers band or staying in and watching a low-budget biopic about The Monkees?

[molan]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='238258' date='Jul 12 2008, 11:18 PM']To make a fairer comparison, would you prefer a great covers band or a great originals band?

How about a covers band or a karaoke night?

Covers band or staying in and watching a low-budget biopic about The Monkees?[/quote]

On your first point - Impossible to differentiate

If a band is "great" then they are "great". What possible difference should it make who wrote the songs?

In general terms a Karaoke night is my idea of hell. However if the karaoke singers happened to be Aretha Franklin & James Brown then I'd go for the Karaoke ahead of pretty much anything else.

Third one is tricky too, I was just about the right age to be quite impressed by the raw fun of the Monkees and had no idea quite how manufactured they were. A low budget biopic might just work in terms of matching the whole ethos of The Monkees. If so then I'd simply Sky+ it and watch it in my own time whilst still keeping some free time to go and see the covers band.

[OldGit]

[quote name='MananaMan' post='238158' date='Jul 12 2008, 07:55 PM']+1 to that Jase, both on the original and covers scene there are far too many utter crap bands out there clogging up promoter's time and gig schedules. Its unfortunate that quality is such a subjective thing...

I'd also argue (being a staunch supporter of original live music) that covers bands do more harm to original music than crap bands ever could. I know I'm probably going to insult most people on this board at this point, so let me add a disclaimer : In no way do I object to people playing music for a living (whatever music that may be), nor do I doubt the musical ability or creative talent of anybody playing in a cover / tribute act. I also understand that there is a great desire for such acts in the UK today, so i do not blame anyone for pursuing this lucrative avenue.

Having said that, I personally find it sickening to the pit of my stomach that bands are going out and playing venues that, in days gone past, would normally offer original acts more financially viable places to play using hardly any imagination to trundle out a set of other people's music.
£150 for a gig is devaluing live music? Jesus! The last tour I played took in 8 gigs in 9 days, I think we got paid something like £250 TOTAL for the full run. That was with 5 of us travelling around the country in a diesel-hungry van. I think we broke even on diesel, just, and that was the most financially successful run we've done in over three years of touring.
I think its just such a safe and easy way of playing music for a living, you've got the entire history of music to pick a cracking set from, and the benefit of having everyone know your songs the second you hit the first chord. If anything, I think it should be the other way round, with the original acts being paid a lot more than the cover bands that really don't have that much work to do to make an entertaining evening for the crowd. Not that I think its easy to pick a covers set, just its a lot easier to do so when you don't have to come up with all the material yourself.

It just plays on the trend that's being going on for years now of re-hashing past glories rather than investigating new talent - when you see every band from 1999 backwards that even had the slightest of hits going back out on tour to scrape the barrel of their small chart success. Bands such as OPM (charted in the late 90's with the truly awful single "Heaven is a Half Pipe" going out at 400-600 quid a night... WTF???

Overall its a cultural thing here in Britain where people aren't remotely interested in a band unless they've got songs they know - its a fear of change and newness, but is certainly something that's perpetuated by the relatively cheap and easy availability of bands all to happy to cash in on this cultural eddy that Britain is currently stuck in.

OK, rant over. Once again, this is all just personal opinion, so take what I've said with a pinch of salt - I am both a bitter originals player and a cynically twisted live music promoter that refuses to book cover bands on the general principles outlined above. Some discussion on the relative merits of playing covers / tribute stuff is probably needed to reassure my miserable soul, and also if anyone can honestly justify it morally I'd be interested to hear your points of view!

Right, bring on the flame... :ph34r:[/quote]

Hi MananaMan and welcome to Basschat

Originals bands that do the work will do as well as a covers or trib band (in a pub / recognise originals venue, not a function, obviously)

It's harder but then if you wanted to just play excellent music to enthusiastic audiences and get paid well you'd just play covers like the majority.

There are much bigger potential audiences for covers and tribute bands. They are not really your audience so you are not competing directly.

It's really hard to play originals to a cold crowd and always has been. IMHO what makes a band stand out and get a following is the show. If people can't instantly get enjoyment from the tunes (because they don't know them) then you have to compensate with a great show. Do that and build a following and at least some of your audience will become familiar with the material.

Add an overlay of heavy marketing and all the extra stuff originals bands do (think Busted/McFly doing schools, Kaisers and that generation of guitar bands having street teams, supports for big bands coming to town, making news for local papers, local TV giving away Cd's, downloads, etc etc etc) and you may do OK. Most originals bands I see play fairly average and derived material yet seem to expect the audience to just instinctly know how great they are and to instantly afford them the respect they think they deserve. There's no stage act and there's no big effort to entertain and no one coaching them with honesty .. shoe gazers anyone?

I've got an idea... Anyone wishing to play in an originals band should not be allowed to moan and whinge about the state of the nation, covers bands taking all the good/well attended /well paid gig nights in good venues, functions, money etc until they have done the training programme.

This would consist of playing covers only for 2 years in working men's clubs.
Only after achieving A grades in Entertainment and "Song quality differentiation" and "Objective common sense" would they be allowed out to assault the general public with their original material and stage show.

That would cut the crap out of the originals band circuit. As Frank Sinatra sang in his cover of New York New York, "if you can make it in WMC's you can make it anywhere"

Edited July 12, 2008 by OldGit